Shared Spaces, Shared Lives, and the Intimacy of Communal Living: Meet Johann Jacob and Helen Kinsella

Johann Jacob and Helen Kinsella, two residents of Co-Habitat Quebec's, join me to share their community in Quebec, Canada.  I met Johann at the Canadian Evaluation Society and he and his partner graciously hosted me and another friend for dinner at their community. I was excited to learn about this way of living in community. Johann and Helen share the history of Co-Habitat Quebec's  and how the architecture of daily interactions shapes a thriving community.

Co-housing communities, as I learn, are not unique in the world or even the U.S.  In this episode we learn how shared responsibilities underpin these intentional spaces, from group meals to collective cleaning.  I ask Johann and Helen about practicalities, like how the community naviagtes things like personality clashes.

We reflect on the transformative power of strong community ties for personal and societal well-being. We end by discussing how communal values could be infused in our own lives.

Guest Bios
Helen Kinsella has lived at Cohabitat Québec for five years with her partner Marc and her two daughters aged 13 and 10. A native of Ireland, she spent 12 years living in London, working in media and for non-profit organizations, with a particular interest in feminist and environmental issues and minority rights. She speaks several languages, and currently works part-time as a community interpreter and translator for Quebec City's health and social services. She was vice-chair of the Women's Environmental Network in London, a feminist charity with a particular concern for the environmental issues that affect women and minority communities. She believes that co-housing initiatives, coupled with strong and vibrant local communities, are a crucial way to achieve healthier and more fulfilling lives.

Johann Lucas Jacob holds a Ph.D in measurement and evaluation from Université Laval. He is a research professional at the Quebec’s Observatory on climate change adaptation (Observatoire québécois de l’adaptation aux changements climatiques) (OQACC), a research center dedicated to the M&E of climate change adaptation. He is also a lecturer in evaluation at the faculty of medicine of Université Laval. Johann is the author of two books, as well as fifty scientific articles and evaluative research reports.

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Transcript

Ann Price: 0:02

Hi everybody, welcome back to Community Possibilities. You know, one of the things that I love to do more than I don't know just about anything, is travel. You know, we learn so much by traveling the world. In this past summer I was privileged to go to Quebec, canada, for the Canadian Evaluation Society and one of my guests, johann Jacob, was kind enough to invite my friend and I over to his house for dinner. He's the friend of another friend we have from the Canadian Evaluation Society and he lives in a place called Co-Habitat Quebec. It's a communal living space that's what I call it anyway and I was not familiar with those kinds of spaces. I'm familiar with the idea of a kibbutz in Israel, but I was not familiar with that in Canada, or certainly not in the United States, Although Johann and his friend Helen, who also joins us on the podcast, told me that we actually have those in the United States. But anyway, I was so impressed with Co-Habitat Quebec and the neighborhood and the neighborliness they have created through this common living space. So you're going to learn about that. You're going to learn about how the community takes care of each other and has responsibility for each other. It's not a forced thing at all, but it's so amazing to me I wonder if you're going to be as interested as I was. You know, we're so isolated these days. We live in communities where we don't always see our neighbors and we've got it organized where we don't have to and they have it organized so they are bumping into their neighbors. So anyway, let me know what you think of the episode. I think it's really fascinating.

Ann Price: 2:02

Before we get started, let me just tell you a little bit about my guests. Johann Jacob is a PhD, has a PhD, rather, in measurement and evaluation, and he's a fellow evaluator. He is lovely. He works at the Quebec Observatory on Climate Change Adaption. And Helen Kinsella is my other guest and she has lived in the community for about five years with her partner and their two daughters, and she's a native of Ireland. She speaks several languages. She lived in London for about 12 years, so she's a fellow traveler along the world. She's interested in feminist and environmental issues and minority rights. So please join me for this episode of Community Possibilities and let's learn about community living. Well, hi everybody. Welcome back to Community Possibilities. I'm so excited I know I say that every single time, but I'm so excited to have my two guests with me today. Welcome, johann and Helen, thank you. So, johann, jacob, and I'm going to try. Helen, I already forgot Kinsella, that's not it. Tell me how you pronounce your name. Well, I say Kinsella, but Kinsella.

Helen Kinsella: 3:22

I'm perfectly fine too. No, no, no.

Ann Price: 3:25

We want to say it. See, I did it again. Kinsella Kinsella. Hi everyone, helen Kinsella, welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast.

Ann Price: 3:34

So, Johann, you and I met at the Canadian Evaluation Society Conference Gosh, it seems like it was so long ago, but it wasn't that long ago. You're good friends with our mutual friend Vanessa, a fellow evaluator, and my podcast is really not about evaluation. It's really about how we live in communities and talking to community leaders who are really doing the work of social change. But you were so kind, johann, you and your wife, to have me and my colleagues, susan Wolf, over and Vanessa, of course, to dinner in your community, and that's what I want to talk to you about, because you and Helen live in this fabulous community. So, before we get into all of that, I want you both to introduce yourself, and, helen, you can say your name correctly this time and you can take turns. I don't know who wants to go first, but just introduce yourself to our audience here and tell us how you came to be who you are, what you do a little bit about yourself and how you came to be who you are.

Johann Jacob: 4:47

Okay, well, go ahead, oh great.

Helen Kinsella: 4:50

Yes, I'm Helen Kinsella. I live in Kawamita, quebec, in Quebec City, which is why you have us on the program. I've lived here for five years now. We've been here. It was October five years ago, so we've just celebrated our fifth anniversary here. I live here with my partner, mark, and our two daughters, who are 13 and 11.

Helen Kinsella: 5:14

And we were previously living in Europe and from Ireland. Myself and we were interested in intentional communities, co-housing communities. We had touched on the subject in England when we lived in London, and then in France. Friends of ours have proposed that we embark on that kind of initiative together, but we subsequently left France and I knew deep down that I did not have the capacity to try and start something like that, but that would happily take part if one existed already. So before we moved to Quebec City, where my partner is from, I had looked into the possibility of finding a co-housing community and, lo and behold, there was one in Quebec City, the only one at the time and certainly the only formalized one, because we should understand that there are many, many types of co-housing communities and not all of them have a very formalized structure with a website, et cetera, et cetera. There are many different types of experiences which I've become aware of through this initiative. But yes, so we decided we liked it, we bought a house here and we've been living here since.

Ann Price: 6:24

Awesome Johan.

Johann Jacob: 6:27

Yeah, well, I don't have as much history than Ellen, because my partner and I we just moved just a bit over a year ago, so, yeah, so we kind of were interested. We were not specifically searching for that kind of co-housing project, we were just fed up of being away in the suburbs. So and we just, well, actually we kind of knew about this place because 10 years ago when I was, I bought another condominium and the promoter was actually helping setting the community here and he was talking about this to us. So we kind of heard about it but didn't really pay attention until when we actually kind of moved here and I remember, oh yeah, that's what this guy was talking about, the co-housing, co-habita, and yeah.

Johann Jacob: 7:32

But we actually kind of liked the idea of the community here by having lived in a condominium before when you don't really know anyone around, even though you're kind of there's proximity between owners, but you don't really get to know the people. So it's kind of it's different because you don't really have the choice to know people around and it's great because you have so much interaction. And yeah, that's something that we were up to, my wife and I, because we were like I said, we were living in the suburbs and people are not through well the place where we live. We didn't really have much interaction with our neighbors because everybody's so focused about doing their own thing, which is not a bad thing, but it's just the way it is, or in our neighborhood at least. So that's why we were actually very happy to settle here. So yeah, so I'm originally from Montreal and I came to Quebec City to study and then to work and then I kind of settled here about, yeah, 20 well, a bit less than 20 years ago.

Ann Price: 9:08

Very good. So remind me again the name of the community where you live.

Johann Jacob: 9:14

That's called a cohabitat Quebec, co-housing Quebec.

Ann Price: 9:18

So the reason why I was so blown away is that I had never heard of an intentional community or a co-housing community. I was familiar with kibbutz in Israel. That seemed like, okay, well, I know about that a little bit and maybe there are some in the States that I'm not aware of and maybe you all are aware of, but to me this was like a novel concept. So can you describe a little bit, maybe for listeners who, like me, were not familiar with that term, what is an intentional community or a co-housing community? What is it?

Johann Jacob: 9:58

first, Well, what I explain a bit about the place where I live to people who don't really know about this, the first thing I say is like well, it's like a condominium but you get to know your neighbor, or it's like a community, a community.

Johann Jacob: 10:18

A communal living, that's your owners of your unit. Apart from that, yeah, it's you live and there is some, you know, some interaction that are between owners, that, like there are some activities that are made in common. There's a couple of examples. For example, well, at least once a week there's a communal meal. Yeah, communal meal. So well, of course, if you don't want to come, you're not to you're not obliged to, but there's this activity and some other activity you know like, for example in spring and autumn.

Helen Kinsella: 11:15

There's some yes, we have group working activities where we work together on the on the grounds.

Johann Jacob: 11:23

Yeah to take care of the things, for example, like the, the ground, and well, just before winter, there's some outside the furniture that you need to put away and you know stuff like that. So there's these activities that are organized and that the members do together. So, yeah, that's yeah. Maybe we can go.

Helen Kinsella: 11:47

Yeah, well, I think the concept of living together is tribally and in communities. That's been around since time in memorial. But they say this modern interpretation of co-housing community. It's said that it began in in Europe, and specifically Denmark, and in in cities like Copenhagen, and you can see beautiful examples of them online as well. If you look up co-housing communities, they're intentional communities. The people who founded Co-Hepitakkebeck this one they went looking for inspiration throughout the United States in fact, because there are quite a few, so you might be surprised. Oh, wow, yes, some nearer to where we are.

Johann Jacob: 12:25

Yeah, I'll say New York.

Helen Kinsella: 12:27

I think there's a couple like the natives, yeah, different places and when I was traveling to Florida by car at one point a few years ago, I identified several on the route in fact, as we were going down. Like I say, there could be many, many more, but they don't have websites or people aren't necessarily aware of them. I know of one in California where it's just three families and they have lived together. They built their homes together and have lived together for several years like that, decades in fact and every night have dinner together. So it also can have a completely different way of functioning, depending on the co-housing summer, much more formalized, I would say. We have quite a formalized structure here and we use a specific type of governance. It's quite bureaucratic, whereas others might be much more casual and more bohemian. I would, I would probably argue as well. So it really depends on where you are and the type of people who found it and the type of people who eventually come on board.

Ann Price: 13:27

So I know just to kind of describe it a little bit, johan, when we pulled up it looks like you know, a condo unit or maybe even apartment housing. I remember you have beautiful community gardens there with you know. I love flowers and all things growing, so that was attractive to me. There is a amazing community space, and the community space I remember has the the play area where your, your daughter, spent most of her time while we were having dinner these gorgeous long tables where people can eat at an amazing kitchen. I think there was like a corner area. I can't remember there was a pool table there, but it was like a gaming area, right. So just, I want to like describe the, the space as I recall it. So can you talk a little bit about what is it? What is it like to live there? What are some of these like shared responsibilities that you all have as part of living in in the community?

Johann Jacob: 14:35

yeah, well, a bit of the, like Ellen was saying, when the people that started the, the cohabita, they went to see other cohabita to see how they organized their thing, because it was really. They really started from scratch the beginning. So they wanted to and they were, you know, involved with their architects and to design all the spaces so that there would be, like you said, all these elements that you mentioned, so that it would be easy for people to to meet and to to be really this. They have this ambition to, to, to merge all the generations. So if you have young children, for example, and you you don't want to be in a position that you can come to activities in the main room because, for example, you have to, you can leave and attend at your, your child. So there's this kids playground, playroom and this.

Johann Jacob: 15:49

So, yeah, so they kind of organized, started this, they thought to all these details. So how can we maximize the, the, the community although that's a good word in English so so that all the interaction could happen. So, and it really like the communal room was really, I think, the first thing that they designed, so that even before there was units, individual unit, there was this communal place so that people can gather, and you know, plan for the rest, so how it's organized, how it is to live here, well, you know. So you can have your private space. But you have also all these details that were designed to favor interaction, like, for example, if you it's just a little example but if you want your mail, you have to go to the communal, communal building, so that, well, you need to come and to see people. If there are people, and people can see you from time to time.

Johann Jacob: 17:15

Of course to interact, yeah so it's, of course it's, maybe, if you're a total owner, it's maybe difficult, it might be difficult, but actually it's. Yeah, you have interaction, but it's also not you're not, like I said, obligated to always be with other people. So, yeah, so, and how is it to live? Well, like I said, there's some event that comes from time to time that you know it's well, I would say, your responsibility for the community. Well, doing some community time.

Johann Jacob: 17:55

I don't know it's the right expression because it might look bizarre, but, yeah, you have to sometimes to be part of the community activities, like you have. For example, you have we have work teams, and so each person in the community is part of a team. Like, each week, there's a different team that is responsible for the community meal. So you have some times to gather with your team and to cook the meal for the week, and you have also, yeah, some cleaning tasks to do, from, I think it's each five weeks, your team is due to do some cleaning of the communal places. So you have these activities that come from time to time, but otherwise it's really like a regular place and you know other things to say.

Helen Kinsella: 19:05

Or if you have any more questions.

Ann Price: 19:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, Helen, are the teams? How are the teams formed, and what happens if you don't like your team? I don't want to do dishes, or, you know, I can imagine somebody driving me nuts in the kitchen.

Helen Kinsella: 19:22

I know, and it does happen, for sure.

Johann Jacob: 19:25

And your partner is such a cook, so he really wants to show off. Yeah, he does show off.

Helen Kinsella: 19:31

And so, before we come, we're made aware that these are the kind of rules and values that we built the community on and for the space to work ideally, everyone will participate and contribute. Of course, in every society not just Coebita, but everywhere there are some people who do more than others, who are more able to contribute more than others, etc. Etc. So we're aware when we come, because this place has been here for over 10 years now. So when Joanne and I joined it, it had been well established and they had established certain things like teams and committees. So you're made aware that there are teams. There are five teams who do the work of the communal spaces on top of other work that needs to be done periodically, and those teams do three things Cooking up the communal meal, the dishes after a communal meal and the housework of the communal spaces in the communal house. And so that's three out of five weeks you're working on your team and some tasks are more involved than others.

Helen Kinsella: 20:34

So, yes, it's not always fun to have that additional work on top of your own work in your own private home, but the idea of it's doing the tasks in the communal house, like cleaning the floors, cleaning the bathrooms, etc.

Helen Kinsella: 20:49

Is that we are more responsible. We feel more responsible for the space rather than just tiring someone to do that for us, because it is seen as an extension of our home, the communal building as you described it, with the big communal eating area and the professional kitchen, etc. And it's a big space. It's a space that requires a lot of investment. It's a very valuable space, so we obviously like to maintain those spaces, and keeping it clean and keeping an eye on it is one of the ways to do that. And then you can, of course, you're not obviously obligated to be at every task every time for the full duration. Each team has roughly 12 members plus the children who contribute as when they can. So certain weeks not everyone can make it. You know people are working late, people are on work trips, people are visiting family, etc. So you're not always going to have your 12 team members for every single task, and we all understand that there are periods where not everyone can contribute.

Ann Price: 21:47

So what happens if somebody is less communal than others? So they knew what they were getting into, but they're just not here. We talk about 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. I don't know if you're familiar with that statement. So what happens if somebody's not living up to their communal responsibilities? The community then come together and have a conversation. What is that like?

Johann Jacob: 22:17

Yeah, it's a kind of a tricky issue because it's something that is actually discussed and, while there's a distinction to make between a situation where, because there is members in different categories of age, so of course the person who is 90 years old, we wouldn't expect this person to scrub the floor or do some physical tasks, but it's kind of raised an issue. So how do you contribute when you're getting older? Because, for now, the curb is climbing so sooner than Well, it won't take much time before a lot of members that for now are in the good health and they can't do what they have to do. But what happens when you're getting older? Or your health is getting bad or you have some physical limitations, so it's something that, well, this issue was brought recently. There's not really a solution now, but the option is Okay. So do we.

Johann Jacob: 23:48

For example, one option on the table was Well, if you're in a position to, well, if you can do your part of cleaning so well, can I pay, for example, somebody to, maybe someone from the community, but someone from outside to I would be up to make the To clean while I can hire somebody to do it. That could be a a solution, but also it's it raises the issue that, well, some people are maybe more wealthy than others, so probably it's good for somebody, but it wouldn't be a good solution for somebody else, but it might raise the issue of some kind of inequality in the community. So it's like I said, it's not something that was solved already, but it's part of the issues that we're dealing with. So, and that's the situation. But when you have somebody who's not really up to what he's asked he needs to do, well, it's also a bit tricky. So maybe it's time to to talk about the yeah, because we do.

Helen Kinsella: 25:10

Yes, because there's a category of people who can't for physical reasons, and there are the people who don't, and and it's, it can be unclear why. So, yes, we, but we have. We use certain methods of co-abita that help us to try and approach difficult subjects, and one of those is nonviolent communication, or conscious communication is called, and the other we try to run. That will be used particularly in those situations where we're having difficulty with with a member, or difficult situation or a conflict situation, and then our method of governance, which is less relevant to that particular issue, is sociocracy. So we try to equip ourselves with ways to deal with conflict or prevent conflict in the in the case of sociocracy.

Ann Price: 25:57

So how does that, that culture or training, happen? Is there like an orientation and well, yes.

Helen Kinsella: 26:06

So again, it's slightly different for us to join since the founding and the founder the founders and the people who were there at the construction of co-abita went through a lot of these processes together where, with each new member, with each new family that arrives, we're doing them at a different pace and separately. So slightly different experience. But yes, you also, again, when you agree to come on board, you agree to take nonviolent communication training with a certified trainer and you agree to take sociocracy training as well. Obviously, when you first arrive, for you know you're given time to just move in and settle. Before you're, you know you're forced to take several trainings. And then we also have the update, our training as well. We try to have training on a regular basis because it's a different, they're different philosophies, they're not what we've grown up with, that type Most of us, that type of that way of communicating and that type of governance. So, yes, we do need to be trained in those.

Ann Price: 27:06

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would expect that there would be some kind of like onboarding for lack of a better word that's coming to my mind where you're interviewing people like are you, you know, let's talk about the expectations, let's talk about the culture of the community so that you get to that you can make a good decision, is this a good fit for you? And then there's has to be some kind of welcome into the the culture in terms of expectations, and I love that idea of talking to people and training them on how to communicate, on thinking about the community I live in right now and our, our, our HOA might, could use some skills and communication. I don't think they listen to my podcast, so it's probably I am not on the board, but my, but my husband is right. So I think all of us and that's really one of the reasons why I started this podcast is because we are not very good at communicating when we have conflict with each other.

Ann Price: 28:09

And if you live in a neighborhood where I do now, where the lots are very large and people, there's no reason to come together. I go to my mailbox, I come home, there are no community meals, there is not a clubhouse. A lot of people have their own pool right, so there's no. You can avoid all of your neighbors if you want to, versus coming into a community where, to use that word I love that word intentional living, intentional community living. So conflict is going to happen because you people in the, in this, the same space, it's, it's going to happen. So I want, I want to ask each of you what is the best thing about where you live and what are some of the challenges that you, you, you come, you have individually?

Johann Jacob: 28:56

Well, obviously there's more positive and negative one that the one that comes to mind first in the. Maybe one, because it's the first that I think about, is maybe not the most important, but it's good because, well, because it's the community. Well, you have different kind of people with different kind of expertise. So if, for example, you're not really a manual type, so it's good because there are some, some great resourceful people here that they know what to do. Well, they know how to use some heavy machinery and because we have a tool, not a tool shed, but a workshop, workshop, so I'll do the tools that you might need. So, but, well, it's not everybody that knows how to operate that kind of machine, but there's actually some people that are really quite manual and they or if you have a problem with, for example, you don't know how to plug your dishwasher, so somebody is there and and it's not, and it's also like a people are a bit on the same kind of attitude. So if you ask somebody, you don't even have even have to ask specifically, but there's, somebody is going, you say I have this problem in an email and somebody will come and help you, and without even you asking in specifically or directly. So people are really, you know, if it's good, because it's a lot of things that, for example, you would if you have a problem with your dishwasher, you will have to call a plumber, but before doing that, there's good chance that somebody can help you and and it's also going to be. You know, it's not going to be a big thing for everybody to help each other, so that's great.

Johann Jacob: 31:03

Well, also, it's good because, well for ourselves, we have a young girl. She's like now she's eight, and before coming here she was maybe in the stage of her development where she didn't have a lot of interaction with with other children. She was just starting kindergarten, so things were a bit starting for her in terms of interaction. But by coming here she really it's really helped her to exteriorize herself to. While she's still a bit shy, some people still say hello to her and she preys, but with other she's starting to be more confident to, to, to interact, and that's good thing, because where we were living it wasn't.

Johann Jacob: 31:56

She wasn't really having a lot of interaction, except when she was going to school, of course, but here, so there's a couple of kids, some kids around her age, so it really helped her, I think, to develop herself and to interact with the, with other people. So so it's good and because, like for what we've been told, a couple of years ago there was way, way, much more kids. Now they are like teenagers and young adults, so at least, but there was really a lot of kids back then. Still now there's less, but it's. They're awesome, even though there are some also always other kids with who she could play, so that's really good. So, yeah, so that's the two main points I can take, so probably you have others.

Helen Kinsella: 33:00

Well, I certainly agree the mutual aid, benefiting from others, expertise and helping each other, knowing there's someone there to both that you can help and that can help you, because often I think my experience of living abroad is that we often move to cities and we've left family behind so we don't have that support network around us to help with DIY in the house or to help looking after the kids or whatever it might be. So, to be in a community like this where, as a little extra support, and that we can do that for others, I love that. I think it's great for parents and for children. For those reasons, it's been quite liberating for me, and the mother too, to know that my child can play in this environment and have other children of different ages to play with. That's great and it aligns with my values. And also I love being able to work on a communal garden with other people and, like Joanne said, gain from other people's expertise.

Helen Kinsella: 33:56

We all learn from each other, which is amazing, and the environmental aspect of it is huge too that we're sharing the land. We live in fairly modest homes that are built to very high ecological standards, we're sharing meals, we have a communal grocery where we have unpackaged food, et cetera, et cetera. So there are a lot of environmental advantages as well, which I like in terms of the disadvantages, or something negative, like Joanne said too, that the advantages are way the negatives. But it is a challenge managing your expectations of other people. Because you work together are dependent on other people, whether in your team or your committee, because you live in very close proximity, you do naturally have expectations of others and it's learning how to manage those expectations, I think, knowing how to communicate your frustration, if there is some that's the challenge.

Ann Price: 34:52

Yeah, we could all learn a lesson there about communicating our frustrations and managing expectations. Johan, any challenges for you?

Johann Jacob: 35:02

Well, it kind of made me think. The last point that Ellen mentioned is sometimes there's well, there's not one model of co-ousing, but we have a model here, that is, we're quite numerous, there's lots of people. I think it's about 42 homes, 42 homes and almost 80 people.

Helen Kinsella: 35:27

Any adults, or maybe no. I think there's. Maybe around 100 people is there. I'm not sure yet.

Johann Jacob: 35:33

Yeah, so it's kind of a it's a large community so you have other co-ousing when, like Ellen said, it's maybe just two or three people or family, and of course the more people you have, the more the potential for you know.

Johann Jacob: 35:52

So it's kind of a conundrum. So if you don't have rules with so many people, well, chaos is going to come. But the more rules you make, the more occasion you have to break those rules or you have your own interpretation of these rules or your own level of compliance to these rules. So maybe somebody that is really doesn't really like to follow rules you might maybe find it a bit hard or sometimes, well, I think nobody really likes rules that are too stiff, too strict. But if you know, sometimes you have to put limits because otherwise people wouldn't really take care of the vicinity or the material or they would, you know, use the communal place and other people wouldn't be able to also use it, or so, yeah, it's kind of the equilibrium, the balance that you need to find between too much rule but also enough rule that this community can work, because, like 100 people living together, it might get sometimes difficult if it's not really clear how communities to function. So maybe some co-ousing with less people. It would be easier maybe to and it's not that people need to.

Johann Jacob: 37:43

Like I said, the interaction between people is what is favored, but you know you can't really have interaction with 100 people at the same time.

Johann Jacob: 37:53

So we're working a lot by emails and there's a log, there's some electronic communication, but when you do that you don't really always go to people directly. So you kind of sometimes don't know if something is wrong because people won't tell you, necessarily not because they don't want to talk to you, it's just because you don't really see them, because you're not living in the same building or et cetera. So, yes, it's kind of it's a big community. So it sometimes adds the disadvantage of big organization where you want to rule everything by rules and you sometimes you don't really know the rules because you're new or you don't really know what's the motive in the beginning. And sometimes you say, well, if this is the motive, is it really necessary to have a rule? Shouldn't we just talk to the people and see if this could be solved differently? So yeah, that's the kind of the problem that is similar to a bigger organization. But also you have to understand that if there was no rule it wouldn't work.

Ann Price: 39:22

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think communal living probably comes naturally to us. Maybe it did at some point. Right to what you were saying earlier, helen, about it's communal living has been around since the beginning of time, but we've so moved away from that. There's got to be like an acculturation process. I remember, johan, when you were kind enough to invite us into your home and let us kind of look at well, this is where I live you told the story about before you and your partner had even moved in, that somebody was in your condo painting your condo and you didn't even know who they were.

Johann Jacob: 40:04

Yeah, so yeah, it's one of the neighbor like three doors from here and, yeah, we didn't ask him anything. He said, oh, I will come and paint with you, and yeah. So we were still living at our other place and we were coming like around 10 am in the morning and this neighbor had actually been two times before, since he was up in the morning so and he was writing on the paper well, it's 7.15 and I paint the first room. And then he came back at 9 am and said, oh, I did the paint in the second room. So, yeah, it's like I said, we didn't ask him to do that, he was really just happy to do it and he's retired so maybe he has time, but yeah, so, yeah, there's a lot of this kind of of, you know, a mutual aid between neighbors.

Ann Price: 41:15

Yeah, probably a lot more helpful than a fruit basket to welcome you to the neighborhood. Can you imagine yeah, that's true. Can you imagine living anywhere else? Either of you.

Helen Kinsella: 41:29

Not in Quebec City. No, I really don't, and I've actually said something. I've said to people I couldn't imagine being anywhere else while I'm living in Quebec City.

Ann Price: 41:39

What is it about Quebec City? Well, it's beautiful, by the way.

Helen Kinsella: 41:43

Yes, it is, and I, you know, I do really like it, but I'm far from home and far from it. They moved here as quite a grown adult and so all my you know the friends and network and family from many decades of living and are somewhere else Now I do have my partner's family is somewhat here, but otherwise most of my loved ones are in Europe. So we not necessarily where I would envisage seeing myself in the future, but while we live here, yes, I'm very happy. I couldn't see myself, whether in the suburbs, which to me is kind of the death of the human spirit level, to the inner city areas, which I love. I mean, we're very close to the center of the town as well here. But you know, where I don't know anyone, where I don't have a community. It can be built and I have done that in London and other places. We've built strong connections with communities around us. But it does take time and I hear it's kind of automatic, it's built in. I don't have to do that anymore.

Ann Price: 42:51

Yeah, what about you, johan? Johan, can you imagine living anywhere else?

Johann Jacob: 42:56

Well, a bit like Ellen, I think it's. If you know, if I need to, if I would be, if I would have to live, you know, to move somewhere else. You know, I wouldn't maybe necessarily seek some kind of something similar, but you know, here in Quebec City I wouldn't imagine myself somewhere else because, for the reason I mentioned, it's, it's well to be part of a community. I think it's something that is really interesting. And for myself, I'm maybe that kind of person who's a bit what's their word in English? Well, it's not in my personality to go somewhere and to know everybody, right?

Ann Price: 43:58

Or introverted yeah introverted.

Johann Jacob: 44:01

So that's you know. Starting something similar somewhere else. It wouldn't make sense, I think. And it's good, because maybe one week after I arrived there I already knew everybody. So you know, to end this, like I said, it's great to be in a community like this. So, yeah, so of course, you never know what the future line holds for you, but I wouldn't move to somewhere else here in Quebec just to be somewhere else.

Ann Price: 44:38

Yeah, and Helen, something you said has me thinking about how all of us can think about how to create communities in the spaces that we're in, even if it's not in an intentional living situation. What can we do to be connected rather than, oh my gosh, nobody talks to each other, right? What can I do to kind of contribute to that connection in my oh for sure, and it does take an effort.

Helen Kinsella: 45:07

Sometimes it's timing. We were very lucky sometimes with the people who lived in their immediate vicinity. But it does take effort and something my partner is very good at being. He's an extrovert, so it does take that effort to reach out to others, to offer yourself up to others, to get to know your local businesses, the people who run those businesses, to talk to the people in your community. That definitely takes less effort for him than it does for other people, but it does take effort and constantly maintaining those relationships that's really important to us as a family and that we know the people who live around us.

Helen Kinsella: 45:45

I think it's really beneficial and I think it's the key for our future is building these strong communities. I think it's super important, whether it's in this form-life context and the risk of a community like this within larger spaces that we become a little bit like an enclave that we can turn in on ourselves, particularly when we're quite self-sufficient for various things. But the risk of cutting yourself off from the surrounding community, that's something I'm aware of and I still like to be part of the wider local community. But in Europe I sometimes find that easier where there's a clear heart of a town or a city and the activity that revolves around that, but sometimes that's harder. I possibly say North America.

Ann Price: 46:31

So is there anything else you want us to know about your community, or anything else you would like to talk about?

Johann Jacob: 46:40

Yeah, well, it's probably for some social scientists.

Johann Jacob: 46:49

It's kind of an experience, it's kind of interesting to live in that kind of community.

Johann Jacob: 46:59

Well, like I said, from my perspective, more advantage and disadvantage, but it's also well, we didn't really talk about the sustainability values here, but it's also interesting.

Johann Jacob: 47:17

It's maybe. Well, it gives a different dimension to these issues also, because, well, as an individual, sure you can change some behaviors and try to be more sustainable in your life, but as a community also, you have these preoccupations that you can also raise and also try to find ways to, as a community, to be more sustainable. And like when, for example, when you plan for the meal that your team is tasked to prepare, well, you can try to yourself. If you just want, you don't want to eat meat anymore, you just want to have a diet that is low in carbon, well, good for you, it's easy for you to do that in your own, but for a whole community, it's another dimension to this question. But it's also interesting for people that study organization and are interested in governance and how people behave as a group. So I would say that it's interesting and sometimes there are some issues, but most of the time it's easily resolved.

Ann Price: 49:07

Helen, anything else you want to add or anything else we didn't talk about that you want to mention.

Helen Kinsella: 49:13

Let's see, I think we've covered everything. Yeah, probably if you had a specific question I might have more to say, but I think I'm happy with everything we've covered.

Ann Price: 49:24

Awesome and I am surprised and interested that there are actually communities like this in the state. So I'm going to have to go do my homework.

Johann Jacob: 49:36

Yeah, sometimes even they are on Airbnb you can rent a room and when you travel and well, we don't do that here, but I know some people here that they traveled in US and Western Canada and they were able to stay and go housing and visit these other places and see how it's organized. And so, yeah, probably your listeners you can even, on Airbnb, find the and if you're interested to see these places, well, I think it's always possible.

Ann Price: 50:20

Yeah, and I absolutely think there's some important takeaways, even if you're not living in that community, like I said, to really think about how do you bring community into your community. So, johanna and Helen, thank you so much for spending this time with me. I really appreciate your time. You're very welcome.

Johann Jacob: 50:36

Yeah.

Helen Kinsella: 50:37

Thank you, Good chatting with you.

Ann Price: 50:40

Thank you very much yeah good luck Hi everybody, thanks for joining me on today's episode of Community Possibilities. I hope you learned something new. I know I did. You know it's been a busy season.

Ann Price: 50:57

I've spoken at five conferences alone over the last year, and one of the things that I've been talking about is engaging communities. Engaging communities with the work, with the design of the work, with implementation and with using and understanding their data. It's so important to engage our communities, the folks that we want to serve. So if you are a coalition leader, a nonprofit leader, I see you, I feel you.

Ann Price: 51:29

Evaluation can be intimidating, and one of the things that I find helps is to begin with the end in mind. So to that end, I have created a course called Use Data to help tell your story. It's a free mini course. You can find it on my website, communityevaluationsolutionscom slash resources. So take a little look at this mini course, see if that can help you begin with the end in mind. And lastly, before I let you go, can you do me a solid, can you like and share this episode? And if you would be so kind to write a review? It really does help get more ears on the podcast so that I can share this content with other folks. Thanks everybody, see you next time.