Community Possibilities
Community Possibilities
Philanthropy's Moment of Truth and Opportunity: A Conversation with Dr. Nina Sabarre
Dr. Nina Sabarre, founder and CEO of Intention to Impact, takes us deep into the urgent challenges philanthropy faces in our current political climate. With federal programs under attack and DEI initiatives being dismantled, foundations stand at a pivotal crossroads – will they retreat or boldly step forward?
Dr. Sabarre reveals how foundations aren't responding uniformly to these challenges. While some double down on equity commitments, others conduct closed-door strategy sessions, fearing repercussions from a hostile administration. This tension highlights a fundamental question: How can philanthropy effectively support communities when macro-level systems are shifting dramatically?
The conversation explores how traditional philanthropic models might be fundamentally misaligned. Most foundations distribute just 5% of their assets, while the remaining 95% remains invested in markets that often perpetuate the very problems their grants aim to solve. Dr. Sabarre unpacks impact investing as a powerful alternative, enabling foundations to generate both financial returns and positive social outcomes while deploying a greater portion of their capital toward their mission.
Perhaps most compelling is Nina's analysis of systems change strategies. Using the "Waters of Systems Change" framework, she demonstrates how conservative movements have masterfully funded long-term influence through strategic investments in media, churches, and educational institutions. At the same time, progressive philanthropy often focuses on immediate community needs rather than building lasting power.
For those working in evaluation, nonprofit leadership, or community organizing, Dr. Sabarre offers practical wisdom for navigating these turbulent waters – from maintaining commitment to community-centered approaches despite funding pressures to building stronger coalitions and drawing lessons from successful social movements of the past.
Subscribe to Community Possibilities wherever you get your podcasts to continue exploring what's possible when people come together to create lasting change in our communities. Be sure to connect with Nina and sign up for Intention 2 Impact's newsletter.
Bio
Nina is passionate about gender, racial, and social equity, and using #evalpreneurship to dismantle the status quo. She has consulted for a wide variety of cross-sector institutions ranging from Earthjustice, WK Kellogg Foundation, The California Endowment, TED’s Audacious Project, Elevate Prize Foundation, Walton Family Foundation, Colorado Health Foundation, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, Omidyar Network, and USAID to name a few. Her work focuses on equitable evaluation for strategic grantmaking and sy
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Hi everybody, welcome to Community Possibilities. This is the place where we explore what's possible when people come together to create lasting change and we highlight community leaders doing the real work in our communities. Today, my guest is Dr Nina Sabari. Nina is the founder and CEO of Intention to Impact. Nina is the founder and CEO of Intention to Impact, a social impact consulting firm that uses research, evaluation, donor collaboratives and global development. Nina thrives at the intersection of evaluation plus entrepreneurship. Nina is passionate about gender, racial and social equity and using evalupreneurship to dismantle the status quo. She and her firm have consulted for a wide variety of cross-sector institutions, such as Earthjustice, the William K Kellogg Foundation, the California Endowment, ted's Audacious Project, the Walton Family Foundation, the Colorado Health Foundation oh my. Her work focuses on equitable evaluation for strategic grantmaking and systems change. Please welcome my friend, dr Nina Sabari.
Ann Price:Hi everybody, welcome to Community Possibilities. I am so happy to have my guest on the show. We've been talking about it probably for about a year. Finally found the perfect topic. So welcome, nina Sabari, to Community Possibilities. Thank you, anne. I'm so happy to be here. I am so excited to learn from you today. I cannot even tell you. So just a little background. Nina and I met probably I want to say 10 years ago, I don't, maybe not, I don't know Something like that Probably at an American Evaluation Association meeting. We've probably known about each other for a while. I don't remember which conference it was that we met in person, but I think the world of you. So thank you for coming on the show.
Nina Sabarre:Thank you, anne. Yeah, that's how I remember it too. I want to say maybe 2016 was the first time that I joined the independent consulting TIG, so that was almost 10 years ago. You're right, yeah, and I'm sure that's where we would have connected. Just, you know, you've been independent consulting for a long time and have such a presence as a role model in the TIG, and when I was just getting started, I was so lucky to learn from a role model in the TIG. And when I was just getting started, I was so lucky to learn from other independent consultants in the AEA community, like yourself and others, who have been so generous in sharing and helping those of us get. That at the time was just getting started, and here we are now.
Ann Price:Oh my gosh, you know how else we know each other. This is reminding me when you were working on your dissertation, I was one of yeah, I was in a focus group, I remember.
Ann Price:I won't name the names unless you want to, but I remember my group and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm in a focus group with those folks, right, and just so you know, I learn just as much as people who are brand new to the field, or 10 years into the field, or as I do from people above me. I mean, I think that's what it's all about, right? We're always learning from each other, no matter where we are along.
Nina Sabarre:You're so right and I think that's a really good way to start this conversation, because, as conditions change, as we find ourselves in new moments of time I mean, every day is unprecedented, right, like there's nobody knows the playbook anymore and so we need this kind of intergenerational, intersectional, like this kind of partnership and collaboration to get through, to get through these times and learning from one another and supporting one another is how we do it. So I'm just so grateful for you and this podcast and the spaces that you curate to create that kind of learning yeah, I appreciate that and I appreciate you, so let's get into it.
Ann Price:so, uh, tell us a little about yourself, and I always ask people to just share, kind of how they came to be who they are, in whatever way is comfortable for you, whatever you want to share.
Nina Sabarre:Sure, okay, so my name is Nina Savari I use she her pronouns. I am a Filipino-American daughter of immigrants. I'm a millennial 90s baby, born and raised in the DC metro area, where I live today, yeah, and also where things are especially chaotic, to say the least. Let's see. I like to say I thrive in the intersection of evaluation and entrepreneurship, and I coined the term evalpreneurship in my dissertation research which Anne mentioned participating in a few years ago. I'm also the founder and CEO of Intention to Impact, so you can call us I2I for short, and we're a social impact consulting firm that primarily works with foundations, impact investors and donor collaboratives to use data and strategy to accelerate impact, influence and innovation.
Ann Price:Awesome. And you know, as you were just speaking, I realized and I try to use titles especially for, you know, folks who don't look like me because I want to respect their title and I should have introduced you as Dr Nina Sabari. So I'm so I'm sorry about that, because we know each other. I'm like I'm just so comfortable but don't want to let that slip.
Nina Sabarre:Nina has some bona fides for sure Appreciate that call out. Yeah, I usually tell people, oh, just call me Nina. But I will say I appreciate that call out. Yeah, I usually tell people, oh, just call me Nina. But I will say I was just thinking about this this morning when I do prefer that people use the title is when they're referring to a group of people and they don't refer to me as doctor, and that's happened in the past.
Ann Price:Yes, Because oftentimes I introduce myself as Nina, I say just call me Nina. But if people say Dr So-and-so, Dr So-and-so and Nina Savari, that's when I'm like, hey, yeah, same same, Because I work in communities a lot and I don't mind being introduced that way. But I usually say just call me Ann. But for my BIPOC friends and colleagues I try to honor that, so I want to get that out there. Hey, let's dig into ITI intention to impact, because, oh my gosh, you guys have, like you know, hit the ground running and are doing such great work. So tell us about I2I.
Nina Sabarre:Sure, our mission at I2I is to measure impact, amplify influence and spur innovation for a more just and equitable world. So that means we're generalists. In practice we work across all different sectors and geographies and issue areas, but our specific expertise lies in measuring impact through the design and implementation of MEL frameworks. So that's monitoring, evaluation and learning. Also amplifying influence, and this is through our focus on the intersection of evaluation and communications, and that leads to a focus on narrative change, fundraising really understanding beyond direct impact how do funders and foundations influence fields as well as spurring innovation. So that's through the use of innovative methodologies and strategy consulting, often related to systems change and impact investing. So that's kind of the three pillars of our work impact, influence, innovation and of course, there's a lot of overlap between those.
Ann Price:Yeah, and I'm so glad to have you on because you personally and you as a team are so creative. You and Kathleen and the group are so creative. I always learn something new from you all the time and I love that, and part of that is your newsletter. And why don't you talk about the framework? And I know people are going newsletter. I get 100 newsletters. Why would I want another newsletter? But, yeah, this group is really creative folks, so tell us about your newsletter, thanks.
Nina Sabarre:And you know we get a lot of positive feedback about our newsletter and I'm with you. I mean there's like newsletter overdrive these days, but ours comes out once a month and it's called Heart to Heart. It's a newsletter focused on social impact, philanthropy evaluation, social impact measurement, and there's three parts to it. So first is on our minds, second, in our hearts and third is up our sleeves. So the on our minds section is just where we share what's top of mind when it comes to trends in the field, methodology, any kind of interesting topic areas that we think are relevant to our audience. On our hearts is where we get a little more personal and we share more about our personal lives different, you know, personal views on the world and issues that are really important to us at a personal level. And then up our sleeves that's where we share a little bit more about the business I2I, the clients we're serving, the work itself, whether we have upcoming trainings or events, just a way to get people to know about what we're up to as a firm. And so I think what we hear from people is that the newsletter it's very short, concise but really relatable. Reading it kind of sounds like you're catching up with a best friend on issues that you care about.
Nina Sabarre:We try to be funny. We are a millennial-owned firm and I think that comes through in our language and delivery. There's lots of like pop culture references and links to YouTube videos and TikToks, and so we try to keep it fun. Yeah, and if you're interested, please go to our website and check out past. We have all of our past monthly newsletters archived on the Intersection. It's a blog that's on our website and then you can also subscribe there.
Ann Price:Yeah, awesome, and it was that newsletter. And then I think you did a I don't know if the right word is vlog on LinkedIn about the same topics. And that's when I'm like, oh, you got to come on and talk about this Because I don't know. And I'm like, oh, you got to come on and talk about this Because I don't know, unless you've been living under a turnip. Our world kind of turned topsy-turvy a couple of weeks ago, at least if you swim in the lake that you and I swim in.
Ann Price:And so the newsletter that caught my eye was where you were really talking about 2025 philanthropy trends, not twins trends. So I wanted to talk about some of those things that you talked about because, as I mentioned before I hit record, I do work with foundations, but not to the extent that you do, so I think you're in a really good position to kind of talk to us about some of the things that you shared in of expectations in terms of their leadership. Now that the federal government has banned a lot of words you use some of those words, friend, I heard you use those words and how they're going to fund things are going to be according to their agenda, against a lot of things that you and I believe in and for a lot of things that we're probably not so fond of. So, again, that puts a lot of pressure on foundations. So let's start there. What are foundations going to have to do to respond, or what should they do to respond?
Nina Sabarre:It's a great question and one that I think a lot of people in our sector are thinking about Really. With the Trump administration's executive orders and attacks on DEI, with the defunding of federal programs, which has a ripple effect, of course, on the nonprofit sector, all eyes are on the philanthropic sector and foundations to see how they will react and what they will do to step in to fill a gap. But what I've noticed is that funders are not a monolith, is that funders are not a monolith. There seems to be varied responses already, where some will double down and some of them will really lean into their commitments, especially related to racial equity. They'll increase their funding to nonprofits to help make up for the public sector deficit. But that's not all funders, that's for sure.
Nina Sabarre:Others, I think for the most part, but that's not all funders, that's for sure. Others, I think, for the most part. What I've noticed is that most are still having closed-door conversations, usually with the board, to figure out their strategy. I've noticed that some are already retreating or pivoting strategies in fear of losing their nonprofit status or being attacked by the Trump administration. I don't know if you saw, but I think it was in November the House passed a bill that is like known in the sector as the nonprofit killer.
Ann Price:It was. I did see that.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, yeah, and it hasn't been talked a lot about recently because there's just so much to talk about recently, but that particular bill was passed again quietly, kind of in the middle of the night, and what it did was make it so that the Trump administration can revoke nonprofit status to any nonprofits that they deem as a terrorist organization, which of course, the Trump administration deems as anything un-American according to their values of what American is, what it means to be American, and so that's really scary to a lot of nonprofits and a lot of foundations are feeling that pressure to, you know, strike a balance between staying aligned with their values while also not wanting to cross a line that could get their nonprofit status revoked. And I think because of that, a lot of foundations are figuring out a legal strategy so that they can live into their values while still avoiding that kind of litigation. And so I've noticed some foundations coming out and saying they're funding movement, lawyering, civil rights attorneys, they're funding the legal side of the equation to make sure that nonprofits are protected in that way. Other foundations are, though you know, like I said, it's not a monolith.
Nina Sabarre:I saw there was a big announcement just last week that MacArthur Foundation, which is one of the biggest institutional funders. They announced they're increasing their spending at this time to give more to nonprofits, which is really exciting, and I see that as them coming out as a leader which can hopefully influence other funders. But then if you dig a little deeper, you'll read that they're actually just increasing their spending from 5% of the required payout to 6% of their endowment, which you know they have a huge endowment. So that is a significant amount of money, but also really like 5% to 6%, I wonder if others can be bolder in their spending. And so it's just a time where we're waiting to see how funders will react.
Ann Price:Yeah, so what I hear you saying is it's no different in the philanthropic sector as it is in business or with nonprofits, right, we see some people leaning in and some people leaning out, some people, like you say, kind of behind closed doors, really trying to figure out their strategy. I know I have certainly seen nonprofits and I guess it's what you're saying. It's the same with foundations as well, maybe being let me be generous here being very careful about the language on their website, for example.
Nina Sabarre:Right, right, right. And who could blame them? I mean, it is a scary time, and it's also a time where we need leaders to step up and really be unapologetic in their stance, especially where they can. So, where the power lies right and with private foundations, that's where I personally would love to see bolder action, because I know they have the resources and the power and influence to do so. And so I think and then you know nonprofits, on the other hand, who are dependent on funding I could see where their strategy may need to look a little bit different until larger players in philanthropy can pave the path for a stronger movement from nonprofits, and so I would really love to see foundations, especially private foundations, come out stronger.
Nina Sabarre:But unfortunately, like you said, foundations are very much tied to business and the corporate landscape is doing the same thing, where many of them are backing away from DEI, some of them are staying strong. But it also could be performative. It's still like yet to be seen what the implications will be, but I'll give you an example seen how, what the implications will be. But I'll give you an example, like the, I was pretty sad to see the chan zuckerberg initiative. You know they have incredible people, and so when we talk about foundations, the program officers, the people that are working on these programs they are committed to their mission, to their values, to their grantees and communities, but it's always about the leadership at the top, and we've seen mark Zuckerberg.
Nina Sabarre:Ever since Trump came into office, has completely bended a knee and he's gone 180 and really shown his true colors, and that has really disappointed me, because, you know, in the past he's been really outwardly spoken about the need for equity, the need for more affordable housing, the need to invest in education, and then, all of a sudden, they just recently announced they're changing their strategy, they're ending a lot of their community-focused programs, and yet he's making announcements like he's spending billions, tens of billions of dollars to build new AI data centers and to really double down on, like their AI side of the business, whereas the philanthropy side they're just gutting. And so it's a time where we realize and we come to terms that philanthropy is ultimately tied to capitalism, and so, even though there's so many good people working within foundations trying to do the right thing, at the end of the day, it's like who controls the purse strings.
Nina Sabarre:Right and how do we influence them Right? And that's the hard part. I think that people are feeling a bit helpless when the people at the very top, especially the billionaires, are just showing their true colors.
Ann Price:Yeah, Raking it in. Yeah, my follow-up to that is follow the money. Yeah, follow the money about that knee bending and how much that cost him. Yeah, personally, we could talk about lawsuits as a strategy, but let's dig more into figuring out what we can do now. Figuring out what we can do now. So one of the things you talked about in your newsletter that really oh, I just, it just made me really want to cry, to tell you the truth, because it felt so true is it feels like a war on the nonprofit sector. It does feel like a war. It does feel like a war. It does feel like a war. It does feel like a war. What is that? Is that kind of? Is that the heart part of the newsletter? I don't remember. It feels like it.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, going back to this idea of these three major sectors the public sector, because they are completely burning it all down the nonprofit sector has to be on defense right now.
Nina Sabarre:In all of this, which we talked about, philanthropy is just intertwined with the private sector, and I think another thing that people are looking towards is new ways of thinking about capital.
Nina Sabarre:You know, like you said earlier, anne, it's about following the money, but I would really love to believe that money is not always bad. You know, in this hyper-capitalist state, that all of a sudden, there's so many decisions driven by greed, and greed alone. It can feel like money is the enemy, but at the end of the day, we still need to figure out how to use capital for good if we're going to exist in this society that still is. You know, capitalism exists, and so one way that people are talking about using capital for good is through impact investing, and so that's something we talked about in our newsletter what it looks like to invest in the nonprofit sector in a way that's not through traditional grant making, but actually through investments that can release and unlock additional resources that were otherwise unavailable, and so that's something I think that people are just talking a lot about is what that looks like.
Ann Price:Well, for those who are listening and may not know, can you give us a little bit of a definition of about impact investing? I definitely have a love as an evaluator. I have a love hate relationship with the word impact, but I know a lot of people don't know what impact investing is and I know that's a big part of your work, so can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah?
Nina Sabarre:sure. So while traditional philanthropy is usually done through grant making, so foundations give grants to nonprofits, ideally flexible, multi-year grants to do and carry out their work. And with a grant, there is oftentimes expectations for reporting like what did you do with those funds, what did you learn, what were your outcomes? But there's no expectation for a return on the grant. It's just giving money to nonprofits so that they can do their work, which is absolutely important. Like more flexible operational funding for nonprofits is needed.
Nina Sabarre:And another form of funding nonprofits or the social enterprises, the social sector, is through impact investing. So with impact investing, it is not a grant, it is an investment, meaning there is some expectation for a return over time. But the terms of the investment are much more focused on impact than financial return. So, in other words, the terms are lower rate than the market rate and returns are expected but not expected. It's not the focus, like, financial return is not the purpose. The purpose is impact and, to the extent that returns are delivered, they're redeployed for additional impact investment. And I think what's really important to know about impact investing, especially in philanthropy?
Nina Sabarre:Philanthropy gives grants from their endowment most foundations, right. So most foundations have an endowment that is invested in the market and the IRS requires annually, foundations give 5% of their endowment to nonprofits and that's it. That's the requirement 5% of all that money that's invested in the market. And so what we were talking about earlier, macarthur just came out and said, you know, we're upping it to 6%. And there are many other foundations who have said we're upping it even more than that in the past, or saying, like, we are committed to 100% of our endowment focused on mission. And so what that means is the money that's invested in the market, let's make it work for good, not just make it. You know, actually, the irony is so much of money invested in the market perpetuates the problems of capitalism and wealth inequality that nonprofits are actively fighting against. So imagine if a foundation has 95% invested in the market that's actually causing harm, and then 5% spending on nonprofits to undo that harm. That balance, that's really off balance.
Nina Sabarre:And so impact investment is saying like, let's divest from the bad and invest in the good while still having returns, so that we can continue to fund with the nonprofits with grants.
Ann Price:Yeah, it just makes me think of that. You know, one step forward, two step back one step forward, a million steps back.
Nina Sabarre:Right, right, five steps forward, 95 steps back. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Ann Price:Yeah, that's, that's, that's better math, for sure.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, and so, like I, I to I right now, as an example, we've been trying to bridge the gap between learning and evaluation for grant making towards learning and evaluation for the impact investing part of endowments, and, in the past, impact investments have not been measured for their impact.
Nina Sabarre:Ironically, they have been. Instead, the investing world uses a measurement framework known as IMM impact measurement and management, but it's a different school of thought than learning and evaluation. So, instead of learning about what's working, what's not working and evaluating outcomes, impact investors are more focused on due diligence. So they collect a lot of their data upfront to see is this a viable investment, is this likely to give me returns? And that's where they collect all their data, that's where they run the numbers, that's where they focus on and if it is a viable investment, they'll make the investment. But then they won't actually follow up on impact. They'll just follow up to see are we actually hitting certain milestones and is it turning the return that we expected it to? And so our work with foundations is helping to bring learning and evaluation techniques over to the impact investing side. So we're not just measuring return, but we're actually thinking about are we achieving impact and what can we learn about this and how can we use that learning to redeploy funds in a way that can achieve both profit and impact?
Ann Price:Yeah, very good. So you know it's funny. I'm looking at the next question that I have here, and I obviously wrote this before the news broke a few weeks ago. So my question was about Mackenzie Scott and you know how much money she's donated like. By money I mean like big money, like a million dollars you know, to nonprofits.
Ann Price:I work with one of those Amazing and my question for you was it working? And in the last couple of weeks the news is, yeah, her investment is working. That's a significant amount of money that she is is giving and I'm not sure if you wanted to kind of weigh in on that at all yeah.
Nina Sabarre:So um, mackenzie Scott is a great example of different ways that philanthropy can be done, and so with her approach it seems like again, there's a lot of due diligence, upfront, kind of like that investor model, but then she gives huge amounts of funding, recognizing that nonprofits really need more of a runway to be able to scale and be effective in their work. And she's not the only one, there's others. So one of our clients is the Audacious Project which is a donor.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, are you familiar with them? No, I'm not, and I love the name. Yeah, they are really audacious. So basically they're a donor collaborative housed under TED, so, as in TED Talks, no-transcript organizations or tens of millions of dollars to the organizations for their work, and so they're really thinking about audacious systemic change. That requires bold investments and, again, to do that, what it takes is a lot of the due diligence upfront.
Nina Sabarre:But what Audacious Project also does, which is what we help do with them, is measure the systems change of that investment. It's less about hey, grantee, what are you doing, tell us your outputs or your short-term goals, and it's more about how does this massive amount of funding transform your organization and the systems in which you're working in to lead to real, radical change, not just the kind of hamster wheel that the nonprofit sector finds itself in, like always chasing funding and always changing strategy to appease funders. This is thinking about the long term, and so I think Mackenzie Scott does that really well, I think Audacious Project and all the donors involved do it really well, as well as impact investors who are thinking about capital in more systematic, long term ways.
Ann Price:Oh yeah, thank you. I'm so glad you provided that example because you know, when I'm in communities and people always have such a hard time with that idea of systems change, right, we must have been making some kind of progress, right? Because I say that? Because the pendulum would not have swung so wildly the other way if we hadn't you know, made some progress.
Speaker 1:That's a good point. If we hadn't, you know, made some progress.
Ann Price:right, that's a good point. And I don't know why In my little brain I think well, surely everybody wants to live in peace and harmony and respect all people, no matter who they are, what they look like, what their pronouns, right?
Ann Price:Surely everybody. Well, apparently not right? Yeah, we've kind of, like you know, seen that. What happens when but oh, I started to say so when I'm out in communities, like I said, people have a really hard time. Well, what does systems change mean? What does it mean to change systems? What's wrong with our systems? They're.
Ann Price:American systems not realizing that they are structured in such a way. I had somebody on the podcast recently talked about systems work, the way they are designed to. If we have inequities, it is because the system is designed for those inequities, right. Yes, that's right, so you may have a backpack program and that's lovely to send kids home with food on the weekend, but that does nothing to alleviate poverty in your community. Right, that's right. And can we back up and back up, and back up and back up, so that that's right.
Ann Price:Yes, yes yes, we're getting to that yeah.
Nina Sabarre:And I think the call to action right now is for funders, for private foundations, to recognize their role in systems change and really think about what does it look like to fund long-term systems change. And actually the conservative right has done this really, really well for decades, and so, even though it feels like a lot of people in our world feel like whiplash, like how did we get to this point? What's happening? How did we get to this crisis, I think if you zoom out enough and look back in history, you'll see that the conservative right has actually been funding systems change for a very long time, just really discreetly, and so when you think about systems change.
Nina Sabarre:My favorite framework is the waters of systems change.
Ann Price:Are you familiar with that?
Nina Sabarre:one yeah.
Ann Price:Yeah, you can talk about it, though, because a lot of people may not be familiar with that.
Nina Sabarre:So this is just my favorite way to talk about systems change. It was originally developed by a consulting firm called FSG, and they talk about how changing systems means changing the conditions that systems are operating within, and so that's why they say the waters of systems change changing the waters that we're swimming in and the waters that are holding problems in place. And so they talk about six different components of systems change. There's the resource flows, so where actual resources come from, where they're allocated. There's policies, practices of organizations and implementers on the ground. There's relationships and connections, connections, power dynamics that obviously influence relationships and connections. And then mental models, so, really like people's hearts and minds and they believe, to change systems, you have to think about changing all of those conditions right, or at least understand how they're interrelated so that you can sustain the ways that you are changing systems. And so backing up a bit to funders and their role in all of this I mean resource flows is a huge part of that.
Nina Sabarre:And, learning from the conservative right, they have been funding things like AM talk show radio. They've been funding churches. They fund like fellowship programs within business schools. I mean the things that they have funded for decades really shape how resources, power, information, mental models are shaped on that side of things and it's really smart what they've done. I mean, they've had these like really top-down agendas and then you know the way they've taken over local media sources and then now the big media sources. It's like they're thinking about how do we change or, yeah, fund these conditions in our favor and then over time you get to where you are today.
Nina Sabarre:And I think the thing about the more progressive side, or the left, where that sector has struggled, is in thinking long-term about these levers of influence, because they're always on the defense. They're always thinking about what can we do to be responsive to community today, which is honestly really important and it is needed, and there's the lack of, like longer term strategic thinking and where can we make these investments that may not pay off for decades, but it's a really hard thing to do. And there's yeah, and that's where we are.
Ann Price:Now that you know that is that is so wise to think about, like zooming out and figuring out how how we are we are, why we are where we are, and I think a big part of that that we haven't touched on is the judiciary right.
Nina Sabarre:Yes, exactly.
Ann Price:Yeah, playing, you know three-dimensional chess. So let's get back to a few things I want to touch on before we run out of time. So I laughed at this one rage giving. That's what I put in my notes. Hmm, a trend to watch what is rage giving Because I think I might want to play.
Nina Sabarre:Rage giving was actually something coined during the first Trump administration, where you saw this huge influx of funding from individual people to nonprofits as a direct response to Trump winning the election back in 2016 and starting his term in 2017.
Nina Sabarre:But I do fear that it's different this time around, that it's different this time around. I think that rage giving is not as prominent as it was the first time, because I think people are feeling more helpless than they were the first time. If we think back to 2017, in response to the inauguration, we saw that epic women's march where hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets millions, if you count not just in DC, but every major city around the country and even around the globe. There was this huge mobilization and people just surge of support for progressive causes and in response to the Trump administration and with that came rage giving and nonprofits saw the surge in support. But now it just does not feel the same and I think it's because of Elon Musk we haven't talked to him yet, but the billionaire oligarchy, the executive orders overnight, the constantly changing rapid conditions.
Nina Sabarre:I think people don't know where to mobilize and don't know where to give, and that is difficult, and I think that is where the sector needs to really figure it out, starting with the funders and then also nonprofits and coalitions, like how can we mobilize people? Because there's a lot of fear among people and there's a lot of interest in becoming more, being part of bigger movements to resist, but I think people just don't know what to do, and so that's kind of I think it is still a trend to watch, but it's like a TBD, like how do we organize?
Ann Price:Yeah, yeah, I think that's also part of the strategy, right? I mean, you know, some of the leaders on that side have been very clear about that.
Nina Sabarre:Our strategy is to keep you exhausted is less because of the exhaustion compared to years ago, when you know people were fired up. Yeah, yeah, not to say it won't be a thing, but we'll have to see.
Ann Price:So one of your other prediction was about responsible tech. I know you've talked a lot about AI. I'm not quite sure if that's what you meant there. Can you talk about what you meant by that? Do we need an alternative in the tech space? I think as part of what you were trying to get to.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, I mean, all the things we're talking about today are so interrelated, right, you know, we think about systems change and capitalism and philanthropy and the moment in time we find ourselves in today, and I think that responsible technology and alternative tech sector that is less extractive, less greedy and more focused on humans and public good is absolutely part of the equation for what this new resilient movement and future looks like. And so, actually, one of our we're really lucky to be working in this space One of our clients is the Omidyar Network and the Omidyar Network. Their main strategy is focused on investing in responsible tech and creating this new ecosystem, and so we're just wrapping up an evaluation that we did for them for a program called the Tech we Want, and I'm excited. I'm actually next week heading to South by Southwest in Austin for the first time ever my first time in Austin and my first time at South by and it's been a bucket list place for me, so I'm super pumped to be going. But we'll be convening people, funders and other leaders in the sector, innovators, talking about like, what does this responsible tech ecosystem look like and how do we build it? And I think it's absolutely part of the equation, especially like Meta, google, microsoft, you know in unprecedented ways they have become huge giants and are now playing new roles in governance and society and culture. And this has never you know, we've never been at this point before. And so there's a lot of unintended consequences about the way that the tech sector has turned into these monopolies, and I think the place we find ourselves in today is largely due to that kind of irresponsible tech. And so responsible tech is thinking about what does it look like, and what that means is changing the incentives making it so.
Nina Sabarre:Tech is not just about money for shareholders. If you think about tech companies, at the end of the day they're all public Like. Their fiduciary responsibility is to their shareholders, so all the decisions they make is about how can we make more money? How can we use ads? How can we use algorithms to increase profit for shareholders? Use algorithms to increase profit for shareholders. Meanwhile, everyone is using these platforms for organizing, for news, for connection, and so, even though how they're being used is at a human level, the decisions behind closed doors are about the profit level, and so there's just a mismatch in what's happening and what's possible, and so a more responsible tech ecosystem looks like putting humans and social good first, which means rethinking this idea that it's all about shareholder value. And what does that mean? What's the alternative look like? And I don't really have the answers to that, but a lot of people are thinking about it and I feel like that is a space to watch.
Ann Price:I want to check for my own understanding. When you say extractive right, extractive tech, do you mean like when I don't post on Facebook hardly at all anymore, unless it's for the business? But do you mean like the data they extract from my Facebook experience or Instagram or you know, I'm not on TikTok either, but all of the spaces Is that what you're talking about?
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, exactly. Okay, just extractive practices, like taking from users and using the data, using, you know, the experience, the expectations of users for the advantage of making more money at the end of the day, making more money at the end of the day versus you can imagine a different world where it's like let's center the use case, the people, the humans that are actually on these platforms, and, instead of extracting their data and using it to make more money, we could use their data to generate more value for society. And like what would that look like? What would it take and what kinds of impact investment would it need, rather than traditional investment and traditional capital?
Nina Sabarre:yeah and so that's where I think impact investors and philanthropy have a role to play in funding these new kinds of tech companies that are not just in it for profit, that can still be profitable to the extent that you need investment to fund the engineers, to fund the products, the UX designers. There is a way where we can do this so that you are still making money, but not just making like billions and billions of dollars for the people up top.
Ann Price:Right, and those algorithms are feeding us things that are not always healthy for us personally or for our society. I think we've seen that pretty clearly.
Nina Sabarre:Absolutely. I know Talk about systems change. I feel like centuries. In the future we'll look back at this time and understand better all these interconnections and how we got to where we are and, hopefully, how we've found the solutions out of where we are. But while we're living in it it can definitely feel overwhelming, yeah yeah, for sure.
Ann Price:So you and I live in the evaluation space, so let me bring it back there Any trends that you see for evaluators, anything looking through your magic ball, what we need to be aware of, how we can help and not cause any more harm, because we're kind of part of this ecosystem too that you're talking about.
Nina Sabarre:Yeah, yes, it is a tough time for the evaluation sector, I think, and a precarious time, so it's really important to be asking these questions, because we can either help or harm, like you said, if we're not asking ourselves the hard questions. I think really so. One thing that I keep thinking about is this idea of efficiency. Right so the Trump administration and their gutting of federal programs and social programs and humanitarian international aid it's all under the guise of efficiency. But the question I'm asking is efficient for whom? According to whom? Like? What criteria are you using to define efficient?
Nina Sabarre:And clearly, they're not using criteria, or at least not ones that are, um, the same ones shared by communities or evaluators, and so I think that's really disappointing, because if they really cared about efficiency, maybe they would turn to evaluations of social programs and learn about what's working, what's not, how can we make this better? But instead they're just going off of their own value system, um, which is at odds with the social sectors and with nonprofit sector. And so I think about evaluation. I think it's really important that we're clear on the criteria and values that we're using to evaluate what success looks like, what goods looks like and how we can make sure that we're centering communities in defining those criteria, and I think that there's a risk that evaluation could be used against us or against communities.
Nina Sabarre:It could be used for accountability towards efficiency, saying things like you know, if weine, um the purpose or what social programs are for and evaluate it based on these new ideas, um, this just runs the risk of evaluation being used against programs or to harm them in ways that it's taken decades for us to move away from accountability and towards learning, and so I think that's where we need to lean. In is like thinking about evaluation as a tool for rigorous learning and strategy and equitable involvement of communities and really stay that course. And it's tricky because I know a lot of evaluators are struggling right now because funding for evaluation is at risk. It's not just about funding for the programs, but of course, evaluation comes with it, and so when a lot of evaluators are worried about their livelihood, there can be this.
Nina Sabarre:like you know, it can be risky or you can feel like this is the time when evaluators might cave, or you could feel like this is the time when evaluators might cave, but I think it's our kind of call as a sector to stand strong in what evaluation could be in this moment. And so, yeah, it's easier said than done, but I think that a lot of us are thinking about that.
Ann Price:Yeah, I think our conference in the fall will be very it will be a very interesting space to have these conversations and I know, as our clients, whoever they are, whether that be foundations or nonprofits or, you know, community coalitions, whatever it is are having these conversations, they're having their own struggles about do I stay or do I go? You know what words do I use, what language do I use? Yeah, it has a lot of implications for our field, certainly. All right, we've been talking a lot of heavy, heavy, heavy things.
Ann Price:So, let's try to bring that to a little lightness, and joy. What's giving you hope these days?
Nina Sabarre:bringing that to a little lightness and joy.
Nina Sabarre:What's giving you hope these days?
Nina Sabarre:Well, this is kind of personal, but it's like so top of mind and I'm really excited and proud about it.
Nina Sabarre:But we're expecting our first child in June and so that has just been such a bright spot through all of this, like being pregnant, and it's taken my husband and I a long time to get here and it's just created a lot of dreaming about the future, you know, of course, on a personal family level, but then also at a bigger societal level, like thinking about the next generation and our future child and all kids to come, and I think that gives me hope that things will not always be this way. I think, you know, it is easy to feel tunnel visioned and feel like we are, that everything is just so crazy and chaotic, but I think, in the grand scheme of things, we as a society and as communities will be resilient and even with our women, our families, like have have opportunity to be hopeful and think about what's in our control, how can we stay healthy and happy while still being part of these bigger movements, and so that's given me some hope.
Ann Price:Congratulations. I'm so excited for you. Thank you. That's going to be one beautiful baby. I can tell you that. Appreciate that. So what's one piece of advice you have for nonprofit or community leaders in these trying times? We're talking about hope here.
Nina Sabarre:Yes, you know, I think that it's really the responsibility of the funders more than non-profits, and so, um, one article that has just really stuck with my team and I has been um. This article called left organizing is in crisis. Philanthropy is a major reason why, and it's in the Nation magazine, written by columnist Nina Luau. We share the same name and a lot of the same feels, and so I highly recommend people read that that article. And for non-profits specifically, I think just joining in coalition feels really important in this moment in time. Yeah, and thinking about different ways to consider whether impact investment is right for nonprofits maybe not for all of their work, but for a portion of their work that's another piece of advice I might have, but I do think the onus is really on the funders, right now.
Nina Sabarre:And I would love to see bolder action, like I said, come out of this time, and I think it's just a little too soon, but hopefully in the near future we'll see some real strategy come out.
Ann Price:I'm going to be sure, and I just wrote a note to myself to put a link to the article in the show notes for everybody to grab, All right. So last question before I let you go when you look to the future, what community possibilities do you see?
Nina Sabarre:You know what's interesting right now? When I look to the future, it also looks like learning from the past.
Nina Sabarre:And actually one of the big lessons from that article and something I've been thinking about a lot, especially coming off of a lot of learning from Black History Month is learning from the civil rights movement and the labor organizing movement, and so I think in the future we have to go back to our roots and thinking about how we can organize from a place of intersectionality, of unity, thinking more systemically rather than just like this reactive approach to activism. Yeah, and so I think looking to the past to understand the future is a really useful tool right now.
Ann Price:I love that. I love that so much. Nina. This has been such a great conversation. I know I've learned so much. I know my listeners are going to learn so much, so thank you, thank you, thank you.
Nina Sabarre:Thank you, anne, this has been a lot of fun.
Ann Price:So how can people get in touch with you or learn more about Eye to Eye?
Nina Sabarre:So, again, check out our website. I encourage you to subscribe to our newsletter. It's just once a month. We're not spammy. We're not going to be selling your data. Um, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there and, yeah, I think those are the main places Our our website, blog, newsletter and LinkedIn are the best place to keep in touch.
Ann Price:Yeah, awesome, and and guys, you will love her newsletter, so definitely definitely check that out. Thank you so much, nina. Thanks, anne. Hi everybody, thanks so much for listening to Community Possibilities. This is the podcast that is all about imagining possibilities for our communities. I'm a podcast listener too, so I know you have lots of choices for the things you put in your ears. So thanks for listening. You know, for some of us it's kind of hard right now. I see you and I hear you. One of the things I'm focused on is bringing all the love and value I can to my clients and the communities we serve together, and value I can to my clients and the communities we serve together.
Ann Price:We've been busy revamping the resources on our website. We offer a wide range of free and low-cost tools, and one of the things I'm most proud of is our new non-profit mission statement template. It is gorgeous and will help you so much. There's no time like the present to truly rethink your mission and ensure that it excites the people you serve and those you're trying to attract to your cause. I hope you'll grab it at communityevaluationsolutionscom.
Ann Price:Please be sure to visit the website over the next few weeks, as we'll be rolling out additional templates and resources related to strategic visioning and strategic plan development. In the meantime, we offer lots of other resources from our logic model template, our coalition self-assessment, nonprofit evaluation capacity self-assessment and so much more. And if you're one of the nonprofits finding your budget stressed but need some help with evaluation, I hope you'll check out our course Powerful Evidence Evaluation for Non-Evaluators. Now, lastly, before I let you go, please let me hear from you. Let me know what you're enjoying about the show. Send me an email if someone you know or know of would be a great guest on the podcast. Thanks, everybody, and don't forget to take a breath. Thank you.