Community Possibilities
Community Possibilities
Your Rights Are Your Shield: Courtney Teasley's Proactive Approach to Justice
Courtney Teasley takes us behind the curtain to expose how arrests and charges require only "probable cause" – essentially, that someone probably committed a crime. This low standard follows individuals through most of their journey until trial, but with 97% of defendants accepting plea deals before reaching that point, most convictions occur without ever meeting the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.
The consequences are devastating, particularly for what Teasley calls "DAMM communities" – Disproportionately Affected, Marginalized Minority communities. Black Americans are six times more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts, not because they commit more crimes, but because of targeted over-policing and systemic biases. Without financial resources to mount effective defenses, many people accept pleas simply to escape a system stacked against them.
She offers concrete solutions through her MFN Framework: Mindset (adopting an "innocent until proven guilty" perspective), Finesse (creative defense strategies), and Non-negotiable boundaries (standing firmly on constitutional rights). Her work shifts the focus from reactive approaches that help people after conviction to proactive strategies that prevent convictions in the first place.
Whether you're a community leader, church member, or concerned citizen, Teasley's insights will transform how you understand justice in America and offer practical ways you can contribute to meaningful change.
Courtney's Bio
Courtney Teasley is a nationally recognized criminal defense attorney, business coach, and visionary educator, shifting the paradigm on how we fight systemic injustice. As the founder of emeffen and creator of the MFN Framework for Proactive Advocacy, Courtney leads a movement to empower disproportionately affected, marginalized minorities (D.A.M.M.) with the legal knowledge and strategy to prevent convictions—before the courtroom ever comes into view.
Her impact spans grassroots campaigns, justice-focused curriculum development, and legal education for both community members and lawyers. Through her Easy Way to Learn Your Rights book series, school-based criminal justice literacy programs, and D.A.M.M. Advocate and Legal Warrior trainings, Courtney equips everyday people, educators, and defense attorneys to proactively resist the criminal justice system’s most insidious traps.
Whether speaking to students, churches, or national audiences, she delivers bold, accessible frameworks that challenge the status quo and offer real, community-rooted alternatives. Her work has not only influenced elections but has also helped reunite families separated by state violence and launched legal innovations t
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Music by Zach Price: Zachpricet@gmail.com
Hi everybody, thanks for joining us here on Community Possibilities. This is the podcast that is all about imagining possibilities for our communities. Today, I hope you will be willing to question some assumptions you might have about our criminal justice system. I've been looking for someone to help us do just that, and I finally found the person to help us. Today, courtney Teasley joins me on the show.
Ann Price:Courtney is a criminal defense attorney, an advocacy strategist and founder of MFN, and she is a nationally recognized attorney, a business coach, a visionary educator. She's trying to shift the paradigm in how we fight systemic injustice. She is the creator of the MFN Framework for Proactive Advocacy, and Courtney leads a movement to empower disproportionately affected, marginalized communities, which you will hear her refer to as DAM, d-a-m-m not a cuss word with the legal knowledge and strategy to prevent convictions before the courtroom ever comes into view. Her impact spans grassroots campaigns, justice-focused curriculum development and legal education for both community members and attorneys. Through her Easy Way to Learn your Rights book series, school-based criminal justice literacy programs and DAMM advocate and legal warrior trainings, courtney equips everyday people like you and me, educators and defense attorneys, to proactively resist the criminal justice system's most insidious traps. Whether speaking to students, churches or national audiences. She delivers a bold, accessible framework that challenges the status quo and offers real, community-rooted alternatives. Her work has not only influenced elections, but has also helped reunite families separated by violence, state violence, and launched legal innovations that are reshaping justice across the country.
Ann Price:Let's get started, all right. Hi everybody, you know I've got to come up with a different word to say, other than I'm so excited, because you hear that on every friggin' podcast, is that not true? But today my guest is Courtney Teasley. Welcome everybody to Community Possibilities. Courtney, you and I actually have never met in person. A lot of times somebody comes on the show and I know them somehow, but you and I have actually never met. We have not, and I don't know how.
Courtney Teasley:But hey, Courtney, welcome to the show. Hi Anne, Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Ann Price:I am too, and you are not that far from me, so I'm in the metro Atlanta area. You are in Nashville, one of my favorite towns, I think I told you. My child went to Belmont, so one of these days I'm going to get up there and we're going to have coffee or lunch.
Courtney Teasley:Oh, my goodness, I will definitely take you to all the hot spots. I'm a Nashville foodie, I know all Yay, oh, so yes.
Ann Price:Awesome, awesome. So, courtney, we met because someone you know reached out to me and said you would be a fabulous guest. And when I found you and looked at your website and all the things you do, I'm like, yes, courtney would be a fabulous guest and she works in an area that I have been dying to have someone talk about. So yay. So before we get into it, why don't you introduce yourself to my audience? And everybody listening heads up. I really want to hear your origin story. How did you come to be who you are?
Courtney Teasley:Oh, my God, I always, first of all, thank you so much for having me here, and I love community possibilities, I love your energy and I just love the work you do.
Ann Price:Thank you.
Courtney Teasley:A fellow disruptor sees another disruptor. So my origin story starts here in Nashville, tennessee. My parents I am a child of the crack epidemic and so both of my parents were victims and so I went to live with my grandma at a very early age. I was five years old, and so my grandma raised me and I was raised in East Nashville and we call it out East and in East Nashville. Back in the day it's been gentrified now you know everybody wants to live there now, but back in the day it was dangerous, right, it was very much what I call the damn community, disproportionately affected, marginalized minority part of town, and so being raised in that area, seeing my parents going to the schools that I went to.
Courtney Teasley:I went to a public school then witnessing my mom when she was getting clean. What started her journey to getting clean? She ended up going to jail and she went to jail for the police said it was the sale of. It was the sale of cocaine, right. So the felony sale of cocaine versus use right. And so that is a big.
Courtney Teasley:I learned as a lawyer there's a big distinction here. So there's a difference between how a user gets sentenced and a seller gets sentenced, right, so the seller is going to get more time and the seller is also going to have it on their record for a long time. And then the user doesn't. And so any who her public defender, her lawyer did nothing, right, they just would have did the bare minimum. They would have seen that she doesn't have custody of her children right, that she doesn't. She doesn't have a place to live. So this woman is clearly a user, not a seller. But her lawyer did nothing, and so that kind of you know, I became an advocate in the streets of just growing up, where I was right and seeing the injustices, seeing how the system worked, but not knowing really how deep it was. And then I went to law school and I started, I became a criminal defense lawyer, and so then I was able to see, whew, this is what's going on.
Courtney Teasley:This is what the criminal justice system is, this is how it operates, and I don't see any change in sight. I see no change in sight, I see no real fighters. And so that's how I kind of got grounded, and I've always been a fighter. This is my community, and I took it very personal when I saw systemic injustices happening in front of my face every day in court. I took it personally Like, oh wow, this is y'allall, this is just the job to you. This is crazy. You know, these, these are really. These are people's lives, and so that is my origin story.
Courtney Teasley:That's how I got into you know, wanting to become a lawyer, and you know. And then going to law school, coming out, seeing it opening my own law practice and seeing not having my hands tied by working for the government, opening my own law practice and seeing not having my hands tied by working for the government, so I could really start challenging some of these systemic injustices. And then I was like, oh yeah, this is what I'm here for, this is what I'm purposed to do. I have to challenge these systemic injustices when I see them, because not everyone had the privilege of going to law school, coming out, passing the bar and then being able to see the inside, the ugly, underbelly of the criminal justice system.
Ann Price:I love when you said you were purposed to do that, to do what you do, the path you've been on, and I really believe that, like to my core, that we're all put on this earth for a reason, whatever your spiritual, you know frame of references. I just believe that, right, we're all called. What is it? Is it Robin Roberts that talks about make your mess, your message? I'm not sure I feel like it is her, robin Roberts. Robin Roberts, right, it is Good morning America. I'm pretty sure she does say that, maybe.
Courtney Teasley:I'm making that up. I don't think you're making it up, because it's coined by Robin Roberts' mother.
Ann Price:There you go. I knew I got it from Robin. You know, I think when we do that, that just adds that love and that positivity to the world. Right, I don't think we're not meant to stay in that struggle. You know, clearly you have a passion for this. Clearly it comes from your heart and, oh my gosh, I want to meet your grandmother.
Courtney Teasley:Oh, my God, when I tell you all of this fierce fighter, all of that it comes from the old school principles that were just built inside. My grandma is nothing to play with. She has never been anything to play with. She's always been very feisty Gosh.
Ann Price:Well, you know, I've been called feisty myself, and that's okay.
Courtney Teasley:Yeah, hello, feisty, women get things done.
Ann Price:You know and you know I don't know, we could go down that rabbit hole, but I won't go there, all right. So, um, when I wrote this uh kind of the next, when I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about, I almost wrote a poem here lawyer, coach, podcaster, professor, oh my, why? All right. So you gave us your little brief bio, but you have all these parts of you and I'm kind of tired just reading that. I don't know when you sleep, but I don't know. Tell us about all these things and how do they kind of fit together?
Courtney Teasley:I love that you said it like that. So remember the first story I was telling you about the origin story. So then let's take it from. Okay, I'm a lawyer. And then as a lawyer, I start to see I'm representing people and I'm seeing. Clearly, you know, I got to go back into the community and I have to go assist. Right, I got to go help with this legal knowledge and so I started doing Know your Rights seminars at different colleges. I went and I started teaching criminal justice in the criminal justice department at a historically black college and university here called Tennessee State University. For multiple years I taught over at Stratford High School, which was my alma mater in the damn community, disproportionately affected, marginalized minority community. I was the mock trial coach for them multiple years and like we, actually, they had never placed before and or won medals and so every time we went we won a competition medal.
Courtney Teasley:And so that was my listen. That was, that was service back in the day. Right, that was my service because you didn't get paid for that stuff, or when I was a professor. You know you don't get paid much to do that at all.
Ann Price:Yeah, I represent that remark. Yes, true.
Courtney Teasley:And it sucks, it's not, it's not okay, but that's what it is, and so, but I felt like I had a duty to my community. So I was giving back, I'm educating, I'm doing that, and then so from there, I naturally started teaching other lawyers as I'm going, because I'm just a natural teacher. So I opened my own law practice, which I found out not a lot of lawyers do, straight out of law school doing it, you know, being able to sustain, you know six figures and be able to do it and provide good service, you know, and I mean, let me, let me say this law school does not teach us business and they should. Law school does not teach us business and they should. However, anyway, people were able. Let me just, I just had to just get that.
Ann Price:No, I, you know, I yeah same here. You know. Yeah, you know, I have a PhD in psychology. Same same.
Courtney Teasley:What the heck. So you know, they just teach you how to be a high-paid worker. So if you want to actually be, you can make those six figures, but you know you're not going to scale them up much. You're going to burn yourself out over time, which is what happened with me. And so while I was coaching lawyers, I was like I don't want the same thing to happen to them.
Courtney Teasley:So I had to help lawyers start their own law practices. I had helped them win elections, become judges, I had helped them do all these things and I was like, look, I need this to be sustainable. We need more good lawyers that stay in practice, and that means that they have to make profit and they have to also be making an impact. And I wanted to be able to teach them how to actually use the business that they should have been taught in law school right, how to scale a business sustainably right and that way, so many of them wouldn't be scared to actually come out in private practice. And then we can have more disruptors, more lawyers who were not, who didn't have their hands tied because they were working for the government, because that's all they felt they could do. And I say that because the ABA statistics show that the majority of lawyers are working in the government sectors. I mean working in different places, so you can have corporate, you'll have government, uh right, and then you have private. You know so all of these different ones, but the bulk of black lawyers would be working in the government area. The bulk of all lawyers are there, but black lawyers for sure.
Courtney Teasley:And so it became apparent to me that y'all are scared to make money. You don't know how to make money. Law school didn't teach you how, so you're going to continue to work inside of the system versus coming outside using all that knowledge that you have learned from within. And then now, boom, you're out here helping so many more people and you're also helping yourself. Right, you're making a profit. So that's why I became a business coach. So that took you from the lawyer. I was lawyer, then I was professor, then.
Ann Price:I became a business coach Gotcha lawyer, then I was professor, then I became a business coach Gotcha, I love the chutzpah you hide to go from law school to I think I'll open my own business. Versus, from what I understand you know, when you were a brand new spanking lawyer, you know you might go in a private practice and you're working $80 bazillion an hour and, god forbid, you're not billable and doing all the grunt work versus going out and starting your own business because you wanted to have an impact and it sounds like you don't want to have a boss.
Courtney Teasley:Oh, my God. Well, so let me be clear. When I was graduating law school, I was like every other you know, lawyer or person, about to become a lawyer. I wanted, I wanted to make money for right, like I've been in law school. I got, you know, I got these credit card debt. I really just want to. I want to, I need some money. And so I was looking for a job, like everyone else was. But I looked for a job for a couple of months and I didn't get hired.
Courtney Teasley:And then I was like, or I went on an interview and I had to go back multiple times and I was like, oh, this is wild, you know. And I was like, okay, so I'm not going to wait around here much longer. I found a book called Solo by Choice by Carolyn Elephant, which was a game changer for me, because it really flipped my mind and it was like, listen, you can go work for a firm or something they're going to. Maybe if they pay you $100,000 or whatever, you're going to be billing $200,000. So because the firm has to get money too. And I'm like, wait, hold on, I don't like that. And then I was like, oh, and then firms get to take a percentage of the cases that you actually bring in. I'm like hold on, I'm a native of Nashville and here's the kicker I'm actually from what I called the damn community disproportionately affected, marginalized minority. So I know I'm going to have a lot of clientele, right? I know All I did was you know, do that in high school.
Courtney Teasley:Everybody. You know, they know my abilities, they know my potential, you know, hey, so I don't you, I'll be I in my mind. I just I looked at it and I was like, hey, I'm going to benefit them more than they're going to benefit me. And so I know it's going to take me. I'm going to have a little bit of a learning curve, but I'm okay with that. I'm going to give myself one year to just try out all types of stuff. I'm gonna see which one I like, which one sticks. Criminal law is the one that I was like, oh, yeah, I can do this. And then that's when I was able to see, oh, I can really make a difference here too. And so that's kind of how I got into like, yeah, I'm just going to do this on my own.
Ann Price:And you know I was totally teasing you about not wanting to have a boss, because I always tell people I'm. I always say you know I have the nicest boss, it's the best boss I've had for 20 years, it's me Right? All the decisions. That's the good news and the bad news. Right? The decisions are yours to make, the mistakes are yours to make and the mistakes are yours to make. The mistakes are yours to make and the mistakes are yours to own. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. But there's a lot we could talk about today. You have lots of things, but I really asked you on because I want to talk about your work in preventing and disrupting mass incarceration.
Courtney Teasley:Yes.
Ann Price:And for those folks who are listening, I've read into people. This will not surprise you, right? But a lot of people do not get it right. Well, what are you talking about? Well, they did something wrong. That's why they're in jail. Of course they should be punished. They really don't get it, courtney. Yeah, so I hope you can edumacate people who really think that everybody in jail needs to be there, should be there. Oh my God, that they got a just sentence wherever the 101 course, for I'm trying to be kind for people who think they understand and don't, and then we can really get real.
Courtney Teasley:You ready. This is what we came for, right. Yes, 100%. So, first of all, oh my God, thank you for this opportunity. I have specialized in educating juries as well for the years that I have been on the criminal justice system, because people naturally assume they know, and so I'll break it down just like this.
Courtney Teasley:Every level of the criminal justice system depends on probable cause. Probable cause means it's just more probable than not. That probably right. That is what probable cause means. Probably, okay. So probably is what is needed to arrest you, right. Probably is what gets you into the lower court. So if you're in a lower court, when you start you don't agree on whatever.
Courtney Teasley:You have a preliminary hearing. You say, no, you know, look, something happened, but it didn't happen like you're saying it. Right, it's not as extreme as you're saying it. So I want to have a hearing. That hearing to determine whether or not you did it. Something occurred and you did. It is based on probably probable cause. It's going to go up to the grand jury. The grand jury is going to determine probably, yeah, this person probably did it. And then you're going to get to criminal court. You're going to go through all. You're going to get your discovery, you're going to get everything, and then it's going to be time to go to trial when, finally, you could have beyond a reasonable doubt as the standard that the state needs to prove that you did what they're saying you did beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't come for, sometimes years and years due to this slow court system. So 97% of people take a plea. They'll plead out before they get to beyond a reasonable doubt. Now why will they plead out?
Ann Price:Because they're afraid.
Courtney Teasley:Exactly. They're afraid that there are people that they may have a jury that maybe doesn't understand their experiences, or they may have a jury that maybe doesn't understand their experiences, or they may have a lawyer that didn't care about the case and didn't even work right or didn't file any proper motions, or they're scared. They're scared of what the outcome may be, because the outcome is usually a lot more than what this plea in front of you is offering you, and then it's also easier to get it over with by taking this plea. But the issue with taking that plea is that guess what? It was all based off, a probably. And then we need to start thinking about who made the determination of probably initially right. Who makes that initial determination? Someone who may have four weeks of boot camp training Right? Someone who went to the police department? They, you know, have a GED. Whatever they have, they now have the ability to determine your probably Right Depending on who you are, how you look, right? Maybe they don't understand from where you're from, so they don't understand how you talk or what you're saying, or maybe they don't.
Courtney Teasley:So there's so many different things that people will say about the criminal justice system, but can we all agree on one thing probably the fact that someone probably did something is what initiates someone to jail. Okay, someone could get charged. You get charged based off of them probably doing it and if they, they didn't do it. Or you overcharge them, like you charge my mother with selling crack, but really she's a user of crack. So are you telling me I shouldn't fight this case, when selling crack is a beef felony but using crack is a misdemeanor? 11 months, 29 days now, I got to challenge this system because you got it wrong with your probably. Your probably was wrong, but guess what? I got to have money to challenge this system. Right, I need money to make my bail based off of your probably. I need money to get a lawyer who gives a damn to fight for me. I'm sorry, I don't mean to cuss if I cannot.
Ann Price:We talked about that, that's okay.
Courtney Teasley:Okay, that's all right, but we need money. We need money to fight this case. That is the bare bones that I can give to just show how this system works. So you can funnel many people in due to, probably and due to lack of funds, due to lack of willpower, due to lack of legal literacy knowledge, due to all of those things, due to faith in the system that they could actually, even if they did go to a trial that they're actually going to win, due to all of these things, 97% of people say you know what? I'm just going to take a plea Right. So this is how the system works. That's why you shouldn't assume everyone in jail did exactly what they were accused of doing.
Ann Price:Yeah, I thought we had the you know innocent until proven guilty. Oh my God, look at my shirt you know innocent until proven guilty.
Courtney Teasley:Oh my God, look at my shirt. It's innocent until proven guilty. Mindset Like I literally teach that in my framework IUPG. Mindset Like that's what you have to go back to. What does the constitution guarantee us? What rights do we have? These rights protect us? Right, because we are innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't play out as so in real life, so legally not to go down.
Ann Price:well, I'll go down the rabbit hole because I'm thinking, because I was on a jury last year, so now I'm thinking so is innocent until proven guilty is proven guilty the same as beyond a reasonable doubt.
Courtney Teasley:Oh so, yeah. So beyond a reasonable doubt is the burden of proof. Burden of proof just means the standard that the attorney, the state, must prove right To be able to attorney. The state must prove right To be able to convict this person of whatever right. So, beyond a reasonable doubt, when a jury is looking at a charge say, for instance, it's an assault right and they're looking at this charge, they must say, hmm, did the state prove every element of that beyond a reasonable doubt? Did the state prove every element of this case beyond a reasonable doubt? And if there's any doubt in their mind, it's not guilty right. Any doubt in your mind that this person is the person that the state is saying did something, or that this occurred in the manner the state is saying did something, or that this occurred in the manner the state is saying right. If the state doesn't prove every element, then the jury has no choice but to come back with not guilty right, so innocent. So you're innocent until you're proven guilty by the state through the trial.
Ann Price:So, oh my gosh, there's something I want to. I don't know if we'll have time to talk about the bond system, but oh my God we need a whole nother one. Oh, I don't know when should we go. Should we talk about your framework? Yeah, but I also want you to. I want, at some point I want you to address why there are so many Black folks, particularly Black men, in jail. Yes, because that is something that's part of that. I don't think people get it part.
Ann Price:Yes, so I don't know if you want to go there or you want to talk about your framework. You tell me.
Courtney Teasley:Well, it's all meshed together, so we'll start with the fact that Black Americans are six times more incarcerated than the 60% white majority right, Okay.
Ann Price:So asking the obvious, dare I say, white question Well, isn't that because they commit more crimes? I'm just, I'm playing the other side girl, I love it.
Courtney Teasley:No, no, no. I love that you're doing this because it's great, because then it brings me right back to what we just talked about, right, when I was talking about probably Right, we talked about the probably. Now, if you have a bunch of people out who are trained right to get conviction, you're trained to get arrests, whatever it is, you get bonuses for arrests. You get I know what, what, what, what get I know what, what, what, what, what, what, what you get bonuses for arresting people.
Courtney Teasley:Well, I'm saying like, say, for instance, they're on a task force or there's like a special grant, Like, or they can get commendation medals, Things here, like in Nashville, they can get commendation medals if they make a certain arrest or they get back so much stuff or they find so much.
Ann Price:So yeah, they can get accolades for making arrests, Gotcha it works for you, like giving out parking tickets or speeding tickets to get your quota for the month Right. I don't know if that's real.
Courtney Teasley:Right, I don't listen, they'll deny. I think they deny that. All I know is for a fact is they do get out, they get commendation medals, they get awards, they get all these different things. All I know is for a fact is they do get out, they get commendation medals, they get awards, they get all these different things. And I know that because I pulled plenty of personnel files. I have seen plenty of officers' personnel files and I've seen the awards that they've been given and then the narrative that was written for why they got it Right. So they get accolades.
Ann Price:I took you off the argument that I wanted.
Courtney Teasley:That's okay, I'm going to get back, I'm getting to it. So many questions, I know we're going to go, we got like, and then, okay, yeah, so, anywho. So basically you'll have this they're incentivized to make arrests already in different ways, and so, of course, you're going to go to the damn parts of town, the disproportionately affected, marginalized, minority parts of town, where they are less educated, they don't know, they have not been taught legal literacy ever, right, and so violating rights, doing things that you should not be doing. They have less money. You're less likely to be believed. They can't really fight back. They don't have the money to hire a good attorney. So these parts of towns become over-policed because it's very easy to meet. You're going to be able to arrest anyone, right? That, you see, does something, probably. Okay, well, I'm going to pull you over Now. I pulled you over because I don't know you didn't turn on your blinker when you turned left. That's just me, you know, coming up with a reasonable suspicion. Let me just get. Let me get you pulled over. Oh, now I smell marijuana in your car, right? No, you can't prove that. Uh, there's no way for it, you know. So then you're all right, now I get to search your car. Now I've searched your car, I found something small or whatever you know or I've you you find. Now that's how these arrests happen right in these places. So and it all, all it takes is again a probably. It takes a probably. So someone is likely to be more pulled over, like in nashville.
Courtney Teasley:We had the driving while black report, which showed that the black america black people were pulled over more by metro n Police Department and it was a study that showed, you know, it did nothing Like you pulling someone over because they're Black, right, it didn't get you more, it didn't get you more evidence, it didn't get you anything right, it didn't get you any. It was not equaling up to the amount of like drugs or something found right. And so I have to look at what the actual uh driving while black report, because they had, let me see, they had heart, oh, they had. Was it harvard? They had, it was fact check. So anyway, check it out. It's the gideon's army driving while black report. I'll pull it up and give you the actual. I want to say exactly what it said, but it's Gideon's Army Driving While Black Report here in Nashville, tennessee. That was done and fact-checked by the city, and so it just showed that Black Americans were being pulled over way more.
Courtney Teasley:And so the point is if you're going to pull over or if you're only going to harass a certain minority of people. You don't have any checks and balances for your prejudices, your biases. You have all of this protection around you and police immunity. There's nothing going to change in this kind of culture. That is how Black Americans become six times more incarcerated. Gotcha, over-policed to begin with.
Ann Price:That's the short makes sense yes, yeah, because they're in the pipeline.
Courtney Teasley:And now you're in the pipeline and you can't get out of the pipe because now, once I get you in there and I get that first charge right, or I get you on probation, then I know living in that part of town where you are, I can get you again. Yeah, right, maybe it can easily be trespassing, you shouldn't. Oh, now that you have this on your record, you can't trespass, you can't live in, you can't be on public property anymore. Like you know, mdha, which is the housing authorities. Well, their parents, their family, all of them live there and they can't go over there and they happen and they just say you know what, I'm going to see my mom or whatever. Well, that's a way to get you back into the system. So it's just a domino effect.
Ann Price:Oh my God, so real quick story. And then I want to hear about your framework. So a couple of weeks ago my husband got sick, woke me up in the he'd been sick all week woke me up in the middle of the night, like three o'clock in the morning. I said I think I need to go to the ER, right? So it's about eight hours, eight miles down the road and I realized, you know, it's dark, I'm not quite sure, do I turn this street or that street? And I realized, oh, I should have been in the turn lane. And I can see a car like parked in the median and I'm thinking to myself that's probably a cop, but the light would not change.
Ann Price:It's three o'clock in the morning. He says he is having trouble breathing and I'm like, screw it. I'm taking the left turn. I've got a green light, there's nobody coming. I'm taking the turn. Of course it is a cop, of course I get pulled over, yeah, and I rolled down the window and I didn't officer, I know I understand. But my husband, I'm trying to get my husband to the hospital because he says he can't breathe. And he goes ma ma'am, go right ahead. And as soon as we pulled over I said thank you, jesus, I'm white.
Courtney Teasley:Wow, it's so crazy, right, because you know it would happen a different way, right, could be, likely, could, Probably could. Yeah, see how easy it was. Just for you to explain oh, my husband's not breathing, oh, okay, go ahead. Yeah, exactly, right, Right, so you know, I love that self-awareness. You know what I mean, like having that ability to know that, to recognize your privilege, right, that doesn't take anything away from anybody, right, Just saying, hey checked, wow, that privilege, I do have a privilege. Exactly.
Ann Price:They not have this same experience and well, you know, courtney, it comes from a lot of you know. I didn't like just wake up this day being that aware. It takes a lot of um, uh, self-awareness, it talks. It takes a lot of training, it takes a lot of being willing to stretch your assumptions. I love that, yeah. So yeah, I mean, and I've had some really good training that has helped me kind of open up my brain and see things in a way, and once you see injustice, you can't unsee it injustice.
Courtney Teasley:You can't unsee it, ooh Right. So I love that is a tweetable right there, Anne hey.
Ann Price:So tell me about this framework, Tell me about the work you do in communities.
Courtney Teasley:Yes, okay, and let me give you this stat. It was bothering me. I had to know what the Gideon's Army Driving While Black report. It came out in October 2016. It showed that between 2011, 2015, the Metro National Police Department conducted traffic stops at a rate 7.7 times higher than the US national average. The stops exceeded black driving age population, so during the period, they executed more stops of black drivers than the total number of black individuals age 16 or over living in Davidson County, and they found it was highly ineffective. Consent searches Eighty eight point four percent of all consent based vehicle searches failed to by Black drivers, risks that white drivers do not face at comparable rates.
Ann Price:And so, and tying into what you were just talking about, yeah, I'd love to know what happened as a result of that report.
Courtney Teasley:Oh ooh. So that's crazy. Support, oh, so that's crazy. Here in Nashville, a lot of different people get different money for different things. You know like you know, nonprofits, I think, started. You know being able to do some different things, but you know lawyers from the lawyer world. I can tell you what we did. We use it a lot in our hearings. We use it a lot to challenge evidence and to challenge stops. We use it. That's why these types of things are so helpful for lawyers that that are actually fighters. Lawyers fight back that don't just roll over and push, please. You have people that fight and it's like oh, this is evidence that I can use to. You know, contradict what is being. You know the narrative that's being pushed in my case. So it was it so it was well received.
Courtney Teasley:But now, because some of these things are being rolled back, as you know, all over, yes, yes, I do know.
Courtney Teasley:Yeah, and let me get to the question you didn't ask me, I'm sorry. So, from that, with the things of this nature and knowing, like you said, the statistics that we talked about earlier, after 10 years of practicing, I ran a campaign for one of my very first coaching clients and we made Nashville history by unseating a criminal court judge for the first time ever here. And so my mindset was like, look, oh wow, I really crunched down for a couple of months, you know, to make this happen. I was a campaign manager, solely just, you know, us figuring out how to do this. We didn't even think, we didn't even know who knew. You know, my mantra is nothing beats a failure but a try. And so then I was like, oh okay, I like that, oh, I love. Look, nothing beats a failure. But it is my, I say it for everything, I don't care what it is, I'm going to try it. And if I, you know Right. So here's the kicker. I came out of that knowing we can have more change. So, like that was one portion of it Putting something, somebody in office who should be there, who's going to be able to make some change in the inside, right, that's one portion, but that can't be our sole strategy, right, it's trying to put people in office.
Courtney Teasley:I said, okay, if mass incarceration is going to go anywhere, I need to. Let me look at how this happened. So I go back we're reading the new Jim Crow, going back through all of these different things and I'm like, okay, let me see who's fighting against this. And then I started researching the different people who had like criminal justice reform in their missions. You know it's mainly nonprofits that are fighting. And then I started looking at what they were doing and I was like everything they're doing is reactive, meaning it comes after someone has already been found guilty. Right, they've been found guilty. At this point they're convicted. So you know it's going to take you, you know, 10, 20, 30 years to undo what you could have been fighting for proactively prior to them being found guilty.
Courtney Teasley:It's so much that can be done during that time. So, of course, you can start with the young ones and do legal literacy, which is why I created my book series, which is called the Easy Way to Learn your Rights book series. We have book one on the fourth amendment, we have book two on the fifth amendment that just came out, and so, yeah, we can start with our young ones, right. We do legal literacy curriculums with schools, so that's something you can do early on. But there's a lot more work that you can be doing as well when someone has been caught up in the system, right. So from the time the moment the police want to speak to them, or the moment they're arrested, or while they're fighting their case, 97% of people take pleas. It's a lot of work that can be done in there and that's all proactive, and so the work that can be done in that timeframe is hiring investigators, right. So, like when we're fighting a case, a lot of people, you have a lot of lawyers who don't even use investigators or they will barely use them. Well, we can hire investigators, we can actually get evidence, we can subpoena evidence, we can go out and we can take pictures of the scene. I mean, you can go out and you can request personnel records. You can find places that would be willing to do some sort of community service with you or some sort of program that is kind of diverting you out of the system, right? Or maybe that's an alternative, like you're on probation and you're able to work with this organization.
Courtney Teasley:We have to use our brain power here and I think, as a criminal defense lawyer, that's all we could do right. It was figure out creative ways to be able to assist our clients and if it doesn't exist, create it. And so that is why I created MFN, my business, and the framework is MFN right and so M framework. We target your mindset right. And in targeting your mindset, that's that innocent until proven guilty mindset I'm talking about. That's where we teach that.
Courtney Teasley:And then F is for finesse. Finesse is being creative, thinking outside the box. Stop being so inside the box and thinking like oh, these are the only ways that I can fight this case. No, let's involve the community. Many lawyers don't stay involved in the community, which is why they can't call upon them when they're fighting their case. And you need additional assistance. You know lawyers sometimes shy away from fighting cases to the full extent because they don't want to get. I guess you know they don't want the district attorney to be mad at them or prejudice them on another case or something. Well, if we have the community assisting us in this right, then it takes a lot off of that lawyer from doing a lot of that work. No, we have court watchers in there.
Ann Price:That's a huge proactive way I was going to ask you how can the community assist in all these things?
Courtney Teasley:Because when you were talking about hire a private eye and do all those, all that, costs money, yes, exactly, and so that these things definitely cost money, and so that's why the community has let me, let me give you the last one. Okay, I'll put court watchers and then I'll put how can community? So I don't forget what you're saying yeah, mindset, finesse, yeah, finesse, and then non-negotiable boundaries. And so that's where my legal literacy comes in. Like, standing on your constitutional rights, you stand on those, like those are our shields, right?
Courtney Teasley:The Fifth Amendment book that we just released under the Easy Way to Learn your Rights series, like, we go so deep into detail about that that the Fifth Amendment people don't often recognize that there's a Fifth Amendment right to a lawyer, right, they only talk about the Sixth Amendment right to a lawyer. Now, that's the right to the lawyer when you are already arrested, right? But the Fifth Amendment has some pre-protection in there, and we talk about that in the book. That pre-protection is so beautiful because it's like, hey, I have the right to stay silent, I have the right to not incriminate myself, right, and I want a lawyer. That's it. You'd never like any time that you're people think that you have to be arrested before you can invoke these things, or any time the cops are speaking to you at all, right, at any time, you may not know you're a suspect. You may not know you're a suspect. So you have the right to just say, hey, I want a lawyer, I prefer to speak with a lawyer present, right. And then the point.
Courtney Teasley:The point is, when you're a suspect, anytime the police suspect you of anything, your Fifth Amendment, right, comes to the forefront. Hey, uh-oh, I got the right not to incriminate myself. So that means I'm going to choose to stay silent. Right, I want a lawyer. So that is the power of the Fifth Amendment. That's the non-negotiable boundaries that we stand on right, which is, we're not waiving our rights, we're standing unapologetically on them. And then we're also. We go a little bit deeper in my advocacy training with some different non-negotiable boundaries that we talk about, but I won't bore you with them here. I want to get back to what you were talking about with the court watchers and how people can help.
Ann Price:Yeah, because I'm really interested in how community organizations and churches because I know you're doing trainings there how can the community wrap around folks to give them that protection?
Courtney Teasley:Yes, I'm so glad that you asked, went, I went and I did a lecture called hold on, come back. The lecture is called Advocating for the Least of Us how Churches Can have a Greater Role in Ending Mass Incarceration Nice. And so I created this guide that I'll send to you too and I'll make available for your users, for your listeners. It's called Defending the Oppressed.
Courtney Teasley:Seven Ways Churches Can Disrupt Mass Incarceration, and so in their proactive ways, seven proactive ways. And so one of the first ways is court watching and legal oversight right. And then we talk about how churches can do that. They can attend local court hearings, keep a record of which judges are handing out fair sentences, working with local legal advocates. Many churches have a nonprofit arm, right, so they can have a social justice ministry. I help churches start their social justice ministry so they're more proactive versus they're more reactive.
Courtney Teasley:Solely prison ministries right. So if they want to be more proactive, I help them kind of get that together, and so, in that they actually, when a church does that, then they can. If they want to raise funds, they can raise funds, right. They want to take up money and have people if they make that important in their ministries, right. Just however churches like to divvy out their money.
Courtney Teasley:I advocate on behalf of that and that's kind of what I talked about in my lecture is that more churches should make this, so that that will be a way that someone could have the money to be able to pay for some of these resources Not that they don't take a whole lot, but it's a community thing coming together. So if it's a group of concerned people whether it be businesses, such as my business, mfn, right, that gives 10% of my product profits into organizations that are proactively disrupting, and so that includes if a lawyer is fighting a case and they need resources, they need a medical expert, and those cost thousands of dollars, right, but this person needs this medical expert. I had a case called Disrupt Manchester and we had to hire a medical, a toxicologist, and it's like $1,500 or more, I bet.
Courtney Teasley:You know, and people have enough. Usually people from the damn community are oftentimes thought of as, oh, they're poor, so let's just give them everything free. Give them the free stuff. That's the problem. The free stuff is often the worst stuff and people don't want it. They want quality and they want a way to be able to afford it.
Courtney Teasley:And so I think that in this, I don't want to go off in a rabbit hole there, because I really can go there, but I will go. I don't want to go to rabbit hole there. But the point is, churches have a way to be able to assist, right? The lawyers need additional money, or people fighting in general need additional money, so that's a way they can demand transparency, records, warrants, personnel files, anything that helped in the case I was fighting. When the community came together and started demanding things, they started. You know, the community showed they cared as well, right? So then the elected officials start listening, or they're trying to be on their P's and Q's and do right, because church people are oftentimes all of them voters, right? I was going to say that.
Ann Price:I was so going to say that. Right, which is why we're trying to get rid of voting on the weekend.
Courtney Teasley:Right, we don't want folks coming off Sunday after church on a bus to vote Exactly, so I'll send this over to you, but those are ways. So there are organizations that can leverage their money. There are organizations that can provide assistance, like we had different organizations that stepped in and helped us pay some of these different things. You can have private lawyers, private businesses that are concerned, that are in networks. So that is what the MFN framework is about, right?
Courtney Teasley:I'm talking about turning a thought process into how can we all be more proactive in this fight. How can we work together? Because it's going to take all of us or a network of people. Maybe it's a couple of organizations. You got the NAACP, all right. Well, you got two churches over here, okay. You got two law practices over here All right. You got an ice cream shop down the street that cares like Ben and Jerry's, right. You got a podcast person who's care? You got a news reporter who care? You got a media person who's going to show up. You got a activist over here who's going to organize the people. You got a transportation guy who can say you know, we're all going to reach out to one another and it's like, hey, all right, guys, we need to make this happen, right? This is what's going on. It's time to activate.
Ann Price:Oh my gosh. You know, sometimes it's just about being aware. Like I said earlier, it's just opening up your mind Because, like when you were talking about what churches can do, our church has a prison ministry.
Courtney Teasley:Yeah, it's reactive. Exactly, church has a prison ministry. Yeah, it's reactive and it's like exactly, oh my gosh. And then the thing is, if you did if? And then it challenges the mindset like why do you only want to help after someone has been found guilty? It's because you, you know, you, you don't believe that they're innocent until proven guilty. When they're fighting the case, you look at them as damaged goods, you look at them as guilty already because they have been accused of something. So it's not as attractive to assist someone who is thought of as, hmm, you should have stayed out of trouble. The police would never arrest you.
Ann Price:Yeah, that's what I mean about kind of opening up your mind, because you know, I don't think it's all about. I mean I think you're right. I mean it is somewhat about well, they were guilty, but I also think it's people don't look down that river. They don't think about the unjust systems that put people there in the first place but they can feel and no disparaging on my church ministry. No hate mail folks I go to church with you every.
Ann Price:Sunday. Right, and I appreciate what you do. I do it's important, but there's also all of these other things that put people on a path that they're yeah anyway.
Courtney Teasley:How many people could we keep from going into the system if we proactively just started? I think in the lecture that I did, I talked about hey, why don't you teach legal literacy in Sunday school, right?
Courtney Teasley:Why don't you like? That's very important to people who have grown up in marginalized, and I know this because when I was teaching, when I did the mock trial, we're going against private schools and they had lawyers on staff right and my students. They were somebody who was sleeping in their car. They had not eaten that entire day. They, you know, couldn't even buy their clothes. So we're dealing with a education gap there that makes them vulnerable to this system.
Ann Price:Well, you know it's funny. You brought up education because that's where my mind was going. It even starts before growing up in a damn well. No, it starts growing up in a damn neighborhood, going to a certain school where resources are not the same. There you go. We could have a whole podcast about how our schools are funded, right. But then discipline rates like looking at discipline rates between Black and Brown kids or kids with disability and kids that are not right, absolutely yeah, that is the school-to-prison pipeline.
Courtney Teasley:And, oh my God, that's an entire other podcast. Yeah, yeah.
Ann Price:And we've talked about that here. We're getting to time, but I want you to have an opportunity to talk about your podcast. Fellow podcast woman.
Courtney Teasley:Oh, yay, awesome. So, guys, I have a podcast called the Black Law Girl Rant. It is where the intersection of money, politics and the legal literacy, criminal justice literacy, all come together. We talk unapologetically, just about the things that we're talking about here today right, the mass incarceration, and we also talk about the, but financially right.
Courtney Teasley:We go to the finances, because a big portion of what I believe is that financial power is a prerequisite for social justice, right? So I definitely believe that we have to be consistently learning how we can utilize business as a tool for disruption. So, financial stability, learning how to fund initiatives, hire teams, run campaigns, create sustainable solutions, not those that fizzle out, not those that are. You know, they light a spark, they do good for a little bit of time, but when you disrupt, too much funding runs out. That won't be a problem. When we are actually, you know, investing, you're actually creating money, you're generating, you're learning how to do this. So that is what we talk about all over there at the Black Law Girl Rand. It's where my criminal defense attorney, criminal justice educator and business coach mesh. So follow me, black Law Girl on YouTube, love it.
Ann Price:Rant away. All right, rapid fire question. Oh yay, questions. What is giving you hope these days?
Courtney Teasley:Oh my God, Ann, you don't remember. We just started this thing with a question. Okay, what's giving me hope these days? What's giving me hope is seeing my children learn like it's almost resistance. Right, it's like they're learning with resistance. They're learning about all different types of things. They're learning legal literacy and to see them, you know, going out to these places with me and then regurgitating it, spitting it, teaching others, using my little syllabus and my book to do it, and I'm like, oh my God, it gives me hope because I know it's possible. You know the saying each one teach one. That's why I created that book series and that's why I put like a syllabus in each one of them, because I wanted the reader to be able to become the teacher, and so that is giving me hope that this can spread.
Ann Price:Love it, love it. What is one piece of advice you have for community leaders doing this work?
Courtney Teasley:Oh, Tap in to people outside of elected officials. Tap in to people when you are raising awareness, when you're going to do these different things, you'll bring, you know, somebody who's a. You know who works for the government. Right, you're in a criminal justice. You're bringing the DA, you're bringing a public defender. You know. Oftentimes, again, tap into the people who are doing the grassroots disrupting work you know. Tap into and if you don't know where they are, who they are, start reach out to me, I'll find out, I'll find out for you. I will literally go into that city, I'll reach out to my connects and we'll figure out who's doing disruptive work over there. So I would say, like, what did you say, anne? Expand your, expand your mind, expand your mind, expand your yeah. So then expand your yeah.
Ann Price:Well, expand your yeah. So then expand your yeah, well, and I guess maybe expand your view, yeah.
Courtney Teasley:Expand your view. Tap into those most affected, right? Not just those who, like, went to prison or something. Tap into those who are. It's hard for me to it's hard for me to formulate what I really want to say here, but I'm just going to say be authentic Care. Like your authentic care, like you, if you authentically want to be proactive in this, your willingness to learn, just be open. That's all, yeah.
Ann Price:Yeah, and I think I would add to that, like get curious, oh curious, ask why more? Why is it that you know that's great, it's a good one, all right. Last question when you look to the future, what community possibilities do you see?
Courtney Teasley:I actually love that. When I look to the future, the community possibilities I see are the socially conscious businesses and proactive organizations, nonprofits, community leaders. I see all working together. Right, I see us connected and doing initiatives together. I see like I'm talking about the creative ones, right. Those that are it actually are what I call productive turnips. Right, they're educational, but they blend education with entertainment so we're able to reach a wider audience and spread awareness about the proactive versus reactive issues in the criminal justice system, and that way, we can spark more proactive discussion. We can spark more brainstorms around how what it now? Okay, I mean, this is what's going on in my city. What could be more proactive? What would help in this place?
Courtney Teasley:right, we can spark more discussion around it think tanks around it, and then that way we can actually start creating a dent in mass incarceration. That's when our brain turns from reactive to proactive. Yeah, I love that.
Ann Price:Yeah, proactive. That's where we need to be. That's where we need to live Now. You mentioned your podcast earlier, but I want you to reiterate how people can get in touch with you.
Courtney Teasley:Oh, absolutely. You guys can get in touch with me over on LinkedIn, courtney Teasley, or you can get in touch with me on Instagram at TheCourtneyTeasley. You can get in touch with me on Instagram at ThePortneyTeasley Again. My YouTube is at BlackLawGirl and my email is ctmfencom, and that's E-M-E-F-F-E-Ncom. I am always looking to collaborate. I am always looking to come and help you build. I am, you know, very creative, very innovative, and so if there's nothing there or you can't see the possibility, I'll see it for you Awesome.
Ann Price:I love that. That's a perfect way to end. Thank you, Courtney, for coming on the podcast today.
Courtney Teasley:Thank you for having me, Anne. It was a pleasure and an honor.
Ann Price:Oh, my gosh girl, and have a happy birthday tomorrow.
Courtney Teasley:Thank you so much Hi everybody.
Ann Price:Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of Community Possibilities. I hope you were able to question your assumptions and think differently about the criminal justice system. I know I learned a few things I didn't know. Like you, I'm a podcast listener, so I know you have lots of choices for the things you put into your ears. I want you to know. I appreciate you. Thank you for listening and for sharing the podcast.
Ann Price:You know, for some of us things are kind of hard right now, especially for our non-profit and community leaders. I want you to know I see you and I hear you. One of the things I'm focused on right now is bringing all the love and value I can to my clients and the communities we serve. Together. We've been very busy revamping the resources on our website and we offer a wide range of free and low-cost tools. Our latest resource is the Nonprofit Program Evaluation Checklist.
Ann Price:You know evaluation can be tricky, especially when you're juggling so much. You know I'm known for making evaluation easy to understand and we are all about powerful evidence here at Community Evaluation Solutions. Too often organizations focus on activities and outputs without pausing to assess what is working, what needs adjustments and how to strengthen those outcomes. Program evaluation is not just about accountability. It's about learning, improving and advancing your mission. I hope you'll grab the Nonprofit Program Evaluation Checklist at communityevaluationsolutionscom. Be sure to visit the website over the next few weeks, as we will continue rolling out additional templates and resources related to strategic planning evaluation, community coalitions, all the things, all the things. If you're finding your budget stressed but need some help with evaluation, I hope you'll check out our low-cost course, powerful Evidence Evaluation for Non-Evaluators. And lastly, before I let you go, please let me hear from you. Let me know what you're enjoying about the show. Send me an email if you know someone who'd be a great guest on the podcast. Thanks, everybody, and don't forget to take a breath. See you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you you.