Someone Came: Prisoner Visitation and Support

Walking into a federal prison for the first time can mess with your head: the locked doors, the strict procedures, the feeling that you do not belong there. But what happens after you sit down and simply listen? I’m joined by Shazad Carbaidwala and Dr. Leila Richards, two board members of Prisoner Visitation and Support (PVS), a national volunteer visitation program serving people incarcerated in federal and military prisons across the United States. Our conversation is about the power of presence and what it means to treat someone’s humanity as real, even when their world is hidden from yours.

We get specific about what PVS volunteers do and do not do. We talk about the boundaries that protect everyone involved: limited personal details, no contact after release, and no digging into someone’s crime or case. Shazad shares what it’s like to do this work while also working in law enforcement and why empathy is not the same thing as excusing harm. Leila walks us through the day-to-day reality of visits, what people inside want to talk about, and why connection matters even more for those serving long sentences as they try to understand a world that has changed.

We also pull back the curtain on the nonprofit side: the post-COVID volunteer shortage, the long waiting list of incarcerated people requesting visits, and why “measuring impact” is complicated when so many forces shape reentry and recidivism. If you care about prison reentry support, restorative justice, reducing isolation, and community leadership that actually shows up, this conversation will challenge you in the best way.

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Guest Bios and contact info

Shazad Carbaidwala is a catalyst for transformation, a former professional bodybuilder leveraging his journey as a speaker, PVS board member, author, project manager, entrepreneur/business owner, humanitarian, coach, and law enforcement official to empower individuals worldwide. 

After graduating from an Executive MBA program, Shazad recognized the power of mentorship for his own growth. This realization ignited his passion for coaching, leading him to dedicate himself to guiding others towards success. Shazad is a trailblazer in innovation and social impact. Through his leadership and entrepreneurial ventures, he tackles societal challenges head-on, driving tangible change in industries and communities alike.

Leila Richards

Leila is a retired physician with a background in writing. She worked overseas for many years in humanitarian and public health programs. She lives in Pittsburgh. She has volunteered with PVS since 2019, visiting prisoners at FCI Elkton in Ohio

Linked In Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/shazad-carbaidwala-mba-csm-1088ab91/

PVS Website: www.prisonervisitation.org

PVS Podcasts: 

• Everyday Injustice:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shcWw6ogCE
• International Network for Criminal Justice: criminaljusticenetwork.net/in-cj-newsdesk-2025-shazad-ali-carbaidwala-supporting-incarcerated-people/

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Music by Zach Price: Zachpricet@gmail.com

Transcript

Welcome And The Golden Rule

Ann Price 0:45

Hi everyone, welcome to Community Possibilities. If you are new to the show, I'm Dr. Ann Price, and on this show I talk with community leaders who are making a difference where they live and work. Most of us know some version of the golden rule: treat others the way we would want to be treated. It sounds simple, but it can ask a lot of us, especially when we think about people whose lives may be very far removed from our own, people we may never meet, or people who have been pushed out of sight. Prisoner Visitation and Support, or PVS, is a volunteer visitation program for people incarcerated in federal and military prisons throughout the United States. Through regular face-to-face visits, PVS helps connect people in prison with the outside world. These visits can offer encouragement, reduce isolation, support personal growth, and help people prepare for life after incarceration. PVS's vision is simple and ambitious to make sure that every person in every federal and military prison who requests a visit has access to a qualified visitor. PVS gives special priority to people who rarely receive visits from family or friends, people who want or need visits,

What PVS Does And Who It Serves

Ann Price 2:10

people in solitary confinement, people on death row, and people serving long sentences. Today I'm talking about the power of presence with two members of the PVS board, Shazad Carbidwala and Dr. Leila Richards. Shazad is a speaker, author, project manager, entrepreneur, humanitarian, coach, and former law enforcement official. His own experience with mentorship helped him recognize its power, and today he is committed to helping others grow and succeed. Leila Richards is a retired physician and writer who spent many years overseas working in humanitarian and public health programs. She currently lives in Pittsburgh and has volunteered with PBS since 2019, visiting people incarcerated at the Federal Correctional Institution in Elkton, Ohio. I hope you enjoy today's episode and are also challenged. I'd love to hear your reaction. Please remember to like and share the episode. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Community Possibilities. I am so happy to have Shazad Carbidwala and Dr. Leila Richards with me today. Actually, it's groundhog day. This is recording number two. We had a little technical difficulty. By we, I mean me last time they were here. So they're kind enough to come back. But anyway, I feel like I really know you now. So we're going to start where we started before. If you could just uh introduce yourself, you both are with Prisoner Visitation Support. I'd love to hear you just kind of share about how you came to be who you are before we dig into the program. So uh Dr. Richards, would you like to go first?

Speaker 4:00

Okay. Um I'm a retired physician um who has had some contact with um prisoners in my medical career. Uh I as a medical student, I worked in the Men's House of Detention at Rikers Island for a month, uh, which I thought would be a good preparation for being a doctor in the outside world. And uh that was a very valuable experience for me. And then I worked overseas with um in Lebanon with uh a medical uh team in a hospital in uh South Lebanon that most of whose um most of our staff, the nurses, doctors, lab technicians, most of them had been imprisoned by um

How Leila Richards Found This Work

Speaker 4:45

the Israeli military after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Um and um so I heard a lot of stories about their prison life. And um, but I let me see, I oh, I don't know, about 10 years ago I heard about prisoner visitation and support because I had some connections already with the American Friends Service Committee, which um is the headquarters for PVS and also is the organization that initiated it 50 years ago. Um, so at first I was a donor because I thought they were doing very good work, um, visiting prisoners who had requested visits because they uh had either they had no surviving family members, or their family members were too far away to visit, or in some cases they were estranged from their families. Um so I was a donor for about five years, and then I I thought, well, I I can be doing this. But it's with the it was a little bit scary, um, the whole prospect of going to a prison. But uh the uh the initiation project process for me uh the the the the supervision and the guidance that I got made for a very um smooth entry. And so I've been visiting prisoners for the past five years, once every month, in uh at a minimum security facility in Elkton, Ohio. Lisbon, Ohio. Elton FCI in Lisbon, Ohio.

Ann Price 6:21

All right, thank you, Shazad.

Speaker 4 6:24

Yeah, no, thanks, Dan. Um, I have a law enforcement background. I joined the police force in Boston, Massachusetts back in 2016. And part of going through that process, I kind of understood the outside world of what our bylaws are as a police officer. Um, but then I wanted to also integrate into how the Bureau of Prison operates and works and things like that. So I just looked up what organizations support that initiative, and I found that prisoner visitation in Philadelphia does some of that body of work. So I I applied, put my application in and got interviewed, got it approved, and went through the Bureau of Prisons to be uh allocated um engagement with some of the inmates and started visiting. And it's been it's been an amazing experience ever since then. So that was my initial engagement, and now I've joined the board of directors about four or four years ago. So I've been operating in that function as well. So it's been a it's been a really fruitful experience just visiting inmates and working through the Bureau of Prisons with coinciding with prisoner visitation and support.

Ann Price 7:32

Awesome. So let's uh learn a little bit more about prisoner visitation and support. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about exactly what you do, where you serve.

Speaker 4 7:44

Yeah. Uh Leila, did you want to take that question first or do you want me to analyze it? Um why don't you start this out? Okay. Um so prisoner visitation and support,

Shazad’s Path From Policing To PVS

Speaker 4 7:55

our overall uh mission is to uh uh ensure that people in prison, especially those who rarely receive visits, are having uh face-to-face one-on-one interaction. Um you know, we as individuals or inmates as individuals may go months and years without having any uh any conversations with someone from the outside. Their main engagement is with within the prison system, correctional officers, associate wardens, wardens. So it's really important for PBS to reach out to those, to reach those inmate population that don't receive regular visits and having that one-on-one interaction. So organization was built off Leila, correct me if I'm wrong, but about 50 years ago. And through that process, now we reach we become a uh an organization, national organization that reaches out to, I don't know what the prison count is, but it's over a hundred federal institutions all up federal institutions all across North America. So it's it's really grown and expanded, and we're continuously looking to grow, increase our volunteer headcount, uh, procure more budget from donors as well to advance and enrich our organization.

Speaker 9:23

Uh I could say a little bit about what what a visit to the prison is like. Um first of all, I the day after I my orientation at this prison, uh, COVID locked down the whole prison for the next two years. Um and so we weren't able to visit in person. At that time, I started, uh they gave me the names of prisoners, and I wrote them letters every month. Um the i the same guidelines were in the letters as there are visiting in person, and that is they know my first name, they don't know where I live. Um I the our contact is going to be strictly when they're in prison, not when they get out. We don't have any contact with them aside from our prison visits. Uh, and when we meet, um, I do not ask them any questions about why they're there, what crime they were charged with, because I'm there to see them. Um I don't want my experience with them to be colored or um influenced by whatever crime they committed. Um uh I can quote uh Brian Stevenson here, the uh attorney who has been an advocate for death penalty um uh cases. He said, we're all better than the worst thing that's the worst thing that we've ever done. And um I I I'm just amazed at every every visit um uh at the variety of prisoners there, not just the ones that I talk to, but uh this is a minimum security prison, so I we we meet in the this huge um uh meeting room with with uh where all the other family members are visiting. And there's probably probably more than a hundred people in the in this this room at the prisoners and their family members sitting in chairs facing each other, little children running around or playing games, playing cards with their uh fathers or brothers. Um there's the a desk where we're all watched over by um uh prison uh Christian officers. And uh I had I don't know how I started with a couple of prisoners, but I uh until recently I was visiting five prisoners on a single day, one at a time, each one for about an hour. And each time I planned to visit, I would contact the uh what the person known as the re-entry affairs coordinator and inform him that I was coming to visit. I was given a badge, which um uh meant that I was in a different category from the family members because I was uh you know uh

What A Prison Visit Looks Like

Speaker 12:20

an ongoing volunteer in the same category as some of the um church-related visitors who come. And um uh so I would I would uh go to the visiting room and wait until a prisoner was brought in and then um have the uh uh he would have the option of um uh getting a snack or a cold drink from the vending machine using a plastic card that I had, credit card. And um I found that um, you know, I that your first thing that you're worried about is, well, what are we going to talk about? But they are just dying to talk. They they talk about sometimes about their families, sometimes about, well, of course, about their day-to-day prison life, um, what they did uh before they were incarcerated, what their jobs were, what they would like to do once they're released. And it's especially important to have contact with prisoners just before they're released, because I've talked to some of the guys I talked to have been in prison for 20 years. I mean, they don't they barely know anything about cell phones, they don't know anything about the internet, about how cars have changed. I mean, just just to tell them a little bit about what it's like out there. Um and so uh I it it's every time I go, I am just so glad that I'm doing this. I I I can't explain why it's so fulfilling, but I uh it just shows me a whole different side of our country. Um and of it, it's a different and it's a challenge for me as well. Um I'm not sure, I don't know how I can I can explain it more than that, but um I've gotten a lot out of this program.

Ann Price 14:14

It sounds like um that you move from being nervous to being very comfortable with uh visiting, certainly, and that you are getting a lot out of it yourself personally.

Speaker 14:31

Yeah, I should add that we write brief reports uh back to PVS um after our visit, um just uh uh talking in general about what we were discussing, and if the if we have any particular concern, like on some occasions I've uh as a physician, I've been worried about the the health of um a person I've talked to. You can I can write down what my concern is and um they will follow up on that. Or if there's any kind of concern, you know, a problem about my relationship with someone I'm talking to, that hasn't come up, but um the the our staff is it in uh Philadelphia is very supportive about wanting to address any kind of problems that might come up.

Ann Price 15:19

Shazad, tell us a little bit about your experience, maybe from that first visit and what it's like for you.

Speaker 4 15:27

Yeah, my it's you know, and it's it's an intimidating, it could be an intimidating place, right? All the you know, the movies you watch, the documentaries you see about the prison doors clinging and all that holds true, you know. And the Bureau of Pris, they're they they're strict and they're they should they should be in their bylaws and their processes and things like that. So my my first experience walking in was with Devon's uh medical facility in Devons, Massachusetts. And at that point, it was about an hour and 15 minutes from for me. So while I'm driving there, my first visit, I'm self-reflecting on kind of what Layla mentioned is what what am I gonna talk about? You know, um, we go through a pretty stringent training process in order for us to be enabled to actually start going into correctional institutions. So we don't really cover like a lot of talk track areas. So my first time going there, I was like, okay, what conversations am I gonna spark? I didn't even have really ref a reflection of who I'm I'm gonna be speaking to or how many people I'm gonna be speaking to. And I knew at that point it was gonna be my first visit and I was gonna go there by myself. So I arrived, went through the protocol, went through the metal detectors, um, went through a little cage. Um, it was like a little jail going through that process, going through the fingerprinting process, um, and then walking into a population of about a hundred people, and the majority of them are all inmates at the time because I was the first intake go process going into the facility was really early in the morning. So here I am sitting there, don't know who I'm gonna be seeing, and then a group of people come in, and it was my first time meeting them, and it was just an enlightening experience, and it was so amazing that similar to Layla's experience, was I was able to break bread with them, you know, all of them wanted uh a cheeseburger from the vending machine and a cook. And we all sat around and we spoke about everything and anything about their families, they had specific questions about what the outside world is, um, the technology, the government, things, things like that, what resources are enabled for them to advance their skill sets and things like that. And and from there, it evolved over time into uh an amazing kinship with them because I was always seeing the same group of people and they really looked forward to getting PVS visits. And then our organization was growing too, so more people visiting that institution for PVS were coming as well. So it became a really nice group setting, and we always really shared that empath, empathetic approach with them. And one of the main skill sets that a PVS visitor has to have is very sound, you know, active listening skills because they're ready to share. And a lot of times I'm I'm just listening and gaining some perspective from them, and and you walk away with a really good sense of accomplishment, you know, and it sounds a little bit selfish, right? We're going to see them, but you you walk away with a lot too. And then, you know, my involvement has increased because of my passion for this for this line of work. And and you know, both Lil and I both sit on the board. So we go from an execution point about visiting inmates, but then we also, you know, we sit on the board, so there's a lot of strategic planning on how we grow the organization as well. And this is and you having us on is one of those rounds of growing our organization because this this builds a lot of awareness for people to know what we do as an organization.

Ann Price 19:29

Yeah, Shazad, I am so struck that you were in law enforcement. That is I you know, is it may I don't I I don't mean to be unfair, but it doesn't strike me that a lot of police officers or law enforcement personnel would spend their time

Boundaries That Keep Visits Safe

Ann Price 19:45

visiting folks in prison.

Speaker 4 19:48

Yeah, and you're right. And I'm still I'm still in law enforcement, I'm a female officer now, so I work for the government, and you know, when I got interviewed for PVS, I was told, Shazad, one of the things I have to tell you before you walk into that prison that a a lot of the inmates there are sexual predators. So I was taken back by a little bit by that when I first heard it. Um but you know, thinking about where I am now versus 2016, we all mistakes. I have had a very trivial past, um, just like the majority of us, right? I was also looking at incarceration. Um, and a lot of us can fall within that parameters, you know, making one unlawful mistake could land us in prison. So who am I to judge anybody on what their wrongdoings are? And you have to have that empathy as a PVS visitor to share that. So work with law enforcement, work with gangs, work with people that have um suicidal tendencies, all that makes you have thicker skin to do this type of work.

Ann Price 21:04

Right. I mean, you just have to have such um an unconditional positive regard for just basic humanity.

Speaker 21:16

Right. Um, I could just uh let me just chip in with a a remark. Um uh one another one of our board members is a former BOP official, and um we have gotten very laudatory uh letters from the Bureau of Prisons. I'll just quote from um a recent one. This one this is from the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He said In a system where so many are isolated, forgotten, or placed far from family, PDS stands as a consistent and compassionate presence. So um uh we it we know it's very important to have. We also have a former uh prison inmate on our board. Um, it's we it's important for us to have the perspective both of the BOP and um of the um of the of the the prisoners and their families because we have to be sure that we stay within you know certain guidelines of not, you know, for example, um we might think that a the prisoner should read would really benefit from reading a particular book. Well, we can't we could recommend that, but we can't send it to them. We can't send, we're we can send birthday cards and Christmas cards, um, but that is all. And even those cards, because the mail, uh all the mail has to be photocopied because a lot of the um a lot of uh paper was getting in that was impregnated with drugs. And um, so our prisoners never get to see the my beautiful colored postcards that I would send telling them I was just about to visit because they would just get a black and white copy. Um but um we uh you know with within with you know we've developed an understanding with the Bureau of Prisons, and um they uh I we we get along very well with the corrections officers, and some of the prisoners that I've talked to have recommended PVS to other prisoners who would they see to have no visitors. We now have more, unfortunately, we have uh according to our latest record, we have about um two more than 250 visitors around the the country. Um and each one, I'm not I don't know, I can't say what the average is, but I would say even if um uh every uh volunteer was visiting two prisoners, that means we're we're visiting about uh five or six hundred prisoners um every every month. But we have uh a big waiting list right now. We have more than um 500 um prisoners on the waiting list. So we're we lost a lot of volunteers during COVID because they were elderly, and uh we we have a lot of our population are are retired, um people who have very more open schedules. Um but we would like to to um make more people aware of our work, and right now we're uh uh hosting walk-a-thons at different um places where we live to um try to raise money for uh uh for prisoner visitation and support so that we can recruit more volunteers.

Ann Price 24:50

Gotcha. So, you know, a lot of nonprofits um, you know, have funders that they have to answer to, they have, you know, you know, strategic goals, all those kinds of things. Are there specific goals that you all have in terms of maybe um the the outcomes that you're hoping to achieve, or is it or is it simply and it's still a big thing, uh to offer presence just the gift of a human to a human? How would you describe your your goals?

Speaker 2 25:28

Yeah, both I mean I would say both.

Speaker 4 25:31

You know, in order to uh enrich our organization and have the resources in place to empower the current visitors, we also understand if we want to reach what Layla mentioned about the 500 plus inmates that are requesting visits, we need to increase our volunteer headcount as well. So we could reach out to those those inmates in need. So we do request donorship. Um we we part we partnered with various organizations to try to procure, you know, donate. We we do walk-a-tons, we do a lot of other community enrichment outside of just visiting visiting the pr uh the inmate population to help guide us and get us more more funding for some of the other stuff that we also want to do, um, which is of course increasing our headcount to reach those individuals that aren't aren't getting any social interaction from people on the outside.

Speaker 26:34

Um, I could also just um speaking as um uh someone with

Growth Goals And The Volunteer Shortage

Speaker 26:40

a public health background, your your donors always want to find a way to measure the impact of the program that they're they're funding. But that's very hard to do with when you're visiting prisoners because there are so many different things that impact their their lives. Um of course we'd like to think that our can our our presence, our um sympathy, our our um connection would reduce recidivism. Um but that is that is very difficult to measure. We do get uh our our organization uh in Philadelphia does get regular fan letters from um prisoners saying that they have really been um gratified by our our visits and that this has been a very good program for them. Um and uh I can certainly and we have uh quotations from other uh PVS members saying that this this work has really transformed the my life. It has really changed the way I look at things. So it's been I think rewarding for for both for both sides, although um you can't measure, as I said, it's you can't measure the the impact in a hard and fast way, right?

Speaker 4 28:03

And our our mission from PDS is not to reduce the residivism rate. Um I always have trouble saying that word.

Ann Price 28:13

It is a tough one.

Speaker 4 28:14

Yeah. Um it's not it we don't that's not our mission. Um but the work that we do impacts that uh positively, we think, but we don't have any quantifiable data to represent that. So trying to procure donorship and continue to build awareness sometimes is a little bit challenging. Um so we use different metrics to and KPIs to demonstrate that, but um, you know, it is it is a difficult task.

Ann Price 28:49

Yeah. Well, you know, um people have heard me say this all the time. Um, impact is like one of my least favorite evaluation words, and impact is being thrown around so much these days, but there is such great value in just a human being present for another human.

Speaker 2 29:10

Yeah.

Ann Price 29:12

And and that seems a beautiful outcome to me. Yeah. So we were talking a little bit about um, you were both sharing when you first uh stepped into the um prison, you were both a little nervous. And um, you you uh mentioned the training program. And I can imagine people who are listening to this and they feel like I might have a heart for this. I would want to feel comfortable. Can you say a little bit about that training and how uh PBS really supports people and gets them ready to be a good listener, a good volunteer?

Speaker 29:53

Uh I could let me mention two things about that. First of all, um, as far as I know, each volunteer it has a um reports to a coordinator. Um there are, I think, three three different um PVS volunteers who um go to to I never we never see each other or rarely see each other because we come and go at different times, but um we all report to the same regional coordinator. When we write a report, she gets a copy of the report. Uh any qu she answers any kind of questions we have. Um so she ushered me into the uh into the whole process. Um, but also we have monthly, uh, I think they're monthly, Zoom meetings with all the volunteers to talk about specific topics. I mean, one topic, for example, is uh our experience with transgender prisoners. They're in almost every federal prison, and um they have their own needs and their own issues, um, some of which are uh um have been exacerbated by the uh the Trump administration, which is um you know is uh more conservative in its um approach to uh transgender prisoners. Now this means these are male prison uh males who are uh trans have transitioned it from once to uh female. Um it uh it um they they they get hormone treatments in in the prisons and they um you know they get things in the the uh

Measuring Impact Without Easy Metrics

Speaker 31:40

uh what do you call it called the the prison store that appeal to um more to women than to men, but um they they all they have their own uh group uh and um uh the the the uh transgender prisoner that I see never never comments about having any problem dealing with other other prison inmates. Um and there there are other, let me just also add, there are other um there are other visitors that I I never see them except at times when there's an annual volunteer uh meeting of uh annual training conference at the prison. There are a number of religious um people who come in who um help at uh religious services or who sometimes come in uh as a musical group just for entertainment purposes. Uh we have a very strong Mennonite uh program in our church that brings in choral groups. Uh and there are also some prisons have, I wish most prisons had, um educational programs. At um Elkton, there is their business um program. There's a a, what do you call it? I don't know, a there are business courses uh which prisoners can take, and it's the equivalent of a two-year community college. They can uh finish with a degree, um, which is very beneficial on the outside. And then there are some courses like culinary arts that they can take, which they get certificates for that help them get a job in restaurants or bakeries when they get out. So different different prisons have um different programs. So there are other uh volunteers, uh, you know, teachers and um uh uh pastors coming in and out of the prison as well.

Ann Price 33:42

Yeah, in terms of training for uh volunteers, uh, what does that look like? You you mentioned you have these monthly meetings, but before you even step in a prison, I imagine you go through the um the you know the information, you know, the the requirement that you can't contact them, tell them where you live, share personal things. Is is that right? Yeah.

Speaker 4 34:08

Yeah, we have to in order to actually be a PVS visitor, you have to go through a pretty pretty strict process, right? We we don't we don't just allow the interest level to cater to people just walking into an organization. We you have to go through the process, and part of that process is you know orientation on prison environments, um understanding communication and listening skills, uh guidance on boundaries and safety when you're walking into a federal institution, um, making sure they understand that there's a requirement to continuously support our governance model, which is you know monthly meetings where we all get to we all get together. There's specific volunteer trainings. It's not it's not mandatory, but it's definitely preferred that you join those conversations so you get some perspective on how the what the other issues and risks other volunteers are experiencing, and then talk about collectively as an organization mitigation strategies and things like that. So there's always a lot of uh things that we are walking into. So we're in full support by the PVS board members on the community, the volunteers' engagement. Um so yeah, that's that's always on ongoing.

Speaker 35:34

Yeah. And we have a very uh informative website which has a volunteer handbook and um also um access to the prison BLP prison manual. Um, so we we can if we have any kind of questions, we can consult with that as well.

Ann Price 35:54

Good. So I think um if I'm uh correct me if I'm wrong, but what makes you maybe different from other, say, community organizations that are visiting prisons is you don't have uh a religious agenda, you're not there to evangelize anybody, to convert anybody to any particular religion. The goal really is to be that

Training, Support, And Prison Programs

Ann Price 36:20

human connection. Is that right?

Speaker 4 36:23

That is correct. And yes, we're not we're not affiliated with any religious factions, and that's not what we're trying to convey those spot on.

Ann Price 36:33

Yeah, yeah. There are other people, other organizations. I know certainly my church has a prison ministry um where they go in and offer sacraments and things like that. Uh, but I wanted to make sure we got that out. Well, I'd love to hear from both of you what are your hopes for the organization? Like if you were to, you know, wave a wadgit magic wand and you know reach your North Star, what it would look, what would it look like?

Speaker 4 37:02

Grow and continuous growth, build awareness. And if I was a wizard, my magic wand would be everyone knows what we do. We're able to reach all the inmates that are looking for for visits. And when they when they walk out, if they're eligible for parole and they walk out of prison, they have a sense of empowerment to be productive members of society. And they know that there's people on the outside that truly care for them outside of family and friends. That's my that's my wish.

unknown 37:45

Yeah.

Speaker 37:45

Layla? I guess I would echo what Shazad is saying. I think um I want them to have the experience of um and the memory of uh that there were people who really cared about them, who listened to them, did not judge them, um, was interested in what they were doing, was it trying to encourage them to um live out what their their hopes were for what they could do after they were were released. Um some of these, or many of these prisons, uh the one that I go to um has um mostly um sex offenders, and they are uh as they one of the prison chaplains uh warned us, they're pariahs when they get out. They're not allowed in any public housing, they're not allowed in any parks or fairgrounds, they can't be near any schools. They have a very they're gonna have a real uh challenging um uh future. And um uh I don't want them to, you know, I don't want them to leave feeling as as if they've um been branded for life and have no uh chance to um uh redeem themselves, to to make changes in their lives, to um, you know, start out on a new path and um uh you know make new friends. So that's that's my uh my uh my hope.

Ann Price 39:18

So I want to ask you um what what do you want the larger community or other other folks in our country to know about the people that you serve other than what we've already talked about?

Speaker 39:36

Well, I think some people would be surprised that um these prisoners are serving very long sentences. Um and I and also they're they're being mixed up right now with um uh at least in the prison I visit, with um people who've been picked up by ICE who are in the process of being deported, gang members. And the regular prison population is uh is pretty sedate, and it's mostly older people, and these they get um it's really shaken up some of the prisons to um uh uh to have these um these former gang members uh on just to have this the the pr the uh parts of the prison turned into kind of a way station for um uh more uh uh agitated um uh and violent, not not violent, but just uh prisoners who are trying to make trouble, it it causes a problem for other people.

Speaker 2 40:44

Don't judge try to don't judge people on their past discretions.

Speaker 4 40:55

We we all make mistakes, we're human beings. Our DNA is built to not live a perfect life. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes and second chances should be allocated to everyone. We're not we're not their maker.

Speaker 2 41:14

God is their maker.

Speaker 4 41:16

They will meet God at some point, um you know, through my past history and you know, the things that I've done, whether they're good or bad. Um I've learned a lot through my my experience with PDS, of empathizing with people both inside of the institutions but also outside, and I've gone tougher skin as well. Um but I I I acquired this skill set of never judge anybody, never judge a book by a cover, truly get to know people, truly get to know people's life story because you may walk away fully enlightened um and inspired by by other people's stories, whether they're inside of a uh institution or they're on the outside, and that's what PBS has taught me.

Ann Price 42:18

So I have a few rapid fire questions I've been asking folks for a while now, um, and I'd love to hear from both of you. So the first one is what is giving you hope these days?

Speaker 2 42:33

Lateless laughing.

Speaker 42:35

Well, you know, I know something. I I would I have to stay away from our current um you know environment in the outside world. Um don't watch the news. That's right. No, I I just and that's something I don't um I don't talk to presenters about very often because it when I do mention something, it turns out that most of them are more conservative than I am.

Speaker 2 43:04

Um I um

Hopes For Prisoners After Release

Speaker 2 43:12

I forgot what I was gonna say. I I what's what's giving you hope, Layla?

Speaker 43:17

Oh, what's giving me hope? Um I I just I look at this as as a as a as a challenge. It's been a very uh rewarding kind of challenge. I I feel like in these conversations I learn more about myself. And I think about what my uh conversations I've had with um prisoners and think, well, what what could I do next time to uh build on what we were talking about already? What what could I do to to encourage them more? Um I'm just very inspired by some of the things that um they do in prison. You know, they uh they they have an art program that some prisoners make greetings. Cards, some of them are crochet blankets for the Veterans Administration hospitals. They want to do something useful. They wish there were even more, you know, programs. Some of them teach uh, you know, have a special interest like uh military history, World War II, and they they'll organize courses for other pris that uh where they'll talk to other prisoners. Um my hopes are that the that uh I I wish that the the Bureau of Prisons could allocate more funds to my art particular prison and have more programs, but I think the people I talk to are are really doing the best with um with what they've got. They can order books, they can order magazines, um, they have a gym to and they can uh exercise outside. Um you know, they're doing their best to um meet people from all the all walks of life who they probably never would have met before, and um, you know, make the best of their situation.

Ann Price 45:14

I love that your answer to that question was everything you're getting out of volunteering with this program. I think that speaks to um I think that speaks a lot for PBS. Shazad, what's giving you hope these days?

Speaker 4 45:30

I'll be brief and I'm not maybe it sounds a little cookie-cutter, but just life in general, right? Um, you know, you know, some the conversation that I've had with inmates, their lives are very structured. They get more accomplished in in their day-to-day than a lot of people that I've met on the outside. They wake up really early in the morning, they do their exercise, then they go to work, then they go to school, then outside of school, they uh when they come when they come back to their cell, they're reading, they're always constantly enriching their lives. So it's like it's very it's very structured. So that's what that's what inspires me is like, man, these guys are doing so much within a confined space. What am I doing? Like, we only lived one life and then we go away. And what are we doing to preserve our legacy? My father passed away in 2009, and I had a great relationship with him. But what enriched that relationship even more, and was till this day, 17 years later, people still come up to me and tell me, you know, your dad um was one of the trailblazers that came from Pakistan to the US, and he brought me over, he brought my family over, he co-signed my loans for me, he did this, he picked us up from the airport, he gave us a home. Like that, my number one goal is to preserve his legacy, and that's what gives me life. Um I love it. Yeah, so that's kind of why I do the things that I do is to preserve his legacy. And my little girl, my daughter. She's my she's my number one in inspiration. She's the one that she's the one who changed my life. So yeah, she sits on she sits on my shoulders.

Ann Price 47:27

I love it. Uh all right. So, what's one piece of advice you would give uh community leaders who also have a passion for this work? Maybe they're not involved with you, but they're doing this work.

Speaker 47:41

Well, I hope we can get together and encourage each other. PBS, we are not allowed to um engage in any advocacy, which is frustrating. And I mean, whatever uh we do has to be funneled through the headquarters. Um, but uh uh I feel like the least I can do uh is to um uh get together with with other organizations that are that are doing similar work and um try to uh have a better understanding of the conditions that prisoners are uh try to create more of a bridge between uh the prison population and the outside world to um you know correct misperceptions that people have about prisons and um to um to encourage them to um to try to uh to get it get a view of what of what this this this work is like and sorry do you mind repeating that question again?

Ann Price 48:49

Yeah, I said what advice, what's one piece of advice you would have for community leaders who are doing this kind of work?

Speaker 4 48:57

Yeah, like we don't we don't engage in advocacy advocacy programs, but um partnership and collaboration. I would love I would love to see more of that. In our lives, a lot of us we will uh we

Community Leadership, Advice, And Closing CTA

Speaker 4 49:15

sometimes work in silos, right? We have an overall personal brand and we want to accomplish the goals that we want to accomplish, but we don't put the lens on of potentially as a community-wide what things that we want to accomplish. Um, because it's very it could be potentially very taxing, right? And so just collaboration and and partnership with those organizations is and align on the overall mission of the entire partnership, and that's to really extend our helping hand to to the inmate population.

Ann Price 49:49

So I really want to appreciate uh say I appreciate you guys coming back on and giving this opportunity to giving me this opportunity to have this conversation with uh with you. It I just uh I love the work you do, it's it's radical acceptance, and I think we need some of that in this world. It is um uh it is what we are called to do, is to love one another. So I appreciate you being here. I gotta ask you um my favorite question. When you look to the future, what community possibilities do you see?

Speaker 2 50:26

I see.

Speaker 4 50:30

Communities I foresee communities getting together and serving each other, partnering with each other, not speaking bad about the service that other community leaders and communities are providing and collaborating and building a strong partnership for supporting not just the incarcerated but everybody. I mean and look at the world today, like mental anxiety, mental stress, um, depression has increased after COVID, and we're working so hard in silos to not experience those negative that negativity, but it would be so amazing if we had experiences that we could all share together to increase that positivity. You know, we hear so much negativity. I don't watch the news anymore. I don't know what's going on outside of my box because of all the all the negativity that's portrayed. I would just love to see positivity all the time. And that's try that's honestly that's how I try to live my life, and that's how I try to influence my daughter, my family, is give a helping hand and and stay positive.

Speaker 2 51:49

All right, thank you. Layla?

Speaker 51:51

Um, I think I would uh I think uh Shazad said that very eloquently. I I do think what we tend to um sit in silos now, to um uh you know stare at our computer screens and um to to get too involved with uh with you know conversations that uh uh and it uh kind of a passive way of reacting to the world. And I think that uh it's it's all the more important to get to make connections with other organizations in the community. Uh we want them to know about our work and we want to have a better understanding of what they're doing. Uh we we are kind of like the silent partners of other prisoner organizations. You know, there's one called Prisoner Advocate. Um the Abolitionist Law Center, which um uh is headquarter headquartered in Philadelphia the way we are, but they they take on legal cases um addressing problems in in prisons. We can't we don't we can't have an action arm like that. We have to be the silent partners, we have to be the ones in the background, but we want to be able to kind of help knit communities together and um uh make make them aware of each other's uh problems and needs and and ways to help each other.

Ann Price 53:23

Well, again, I want to thank you guys so much for coming on the show. Can you remind us what the website is so people can learn more about uh PVS?

Speaker 53:33

It's www.pvs.org. That's easy enough. pvs.org. And they can um we they you can also follow them on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Oh no, I'm sorry. I said the wrong thing. I said the wrong thing. We're gonna correct you on that, Leila. Uh it's it it's prisonvisitation one word dot org. Okay. What I said about Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram was correct. Okay.

Speaker 4 54:08

Let me let me um it's prisonervisitation.org.

Ann Price 54:13

Okay, awesome. And we'll I'll be I'll put that in the show notes too, so everybody can just click there and find out more about PBS. So, Dr. Richards and Shazad, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks so much. Thank you, Ann, for inviting us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 54:28

Thank you for having us. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Ann Price 54:33

As we wrap up today's episode, I want to leave you with this question. What type of community leader are you? Leadership and community work is not just about what we get done. It's about how we listen, share power, build trust, and create space for others to lead with us. Maybe you see yourself as the controller who brings structure and action, or uh the dreamer who helps people imagine what is possible. Maybe you're a little bit of a negative Nelly who asks hard questions and spots wrists. Maybe you're the inspirational leader who brings people together around a shared purpose. The truth is, most of us are probably a mix of these leadership styles. We shift depending on the moment, the pressure, and the people around us. The goal really isn't to label ourselves, but to notice our patterns and lead with more intention. So this week, pay attention to how you show up in communities, in the nonprofit or coalition you serve. Notice when your strengths are helping the group move forward and when they may need a little more balance. If this conversation today resonated with you, head to the resources page on our website, Community Evaluation Solutions.com, and download our free workbook, What Kind of Community Leader Are You? It includes a short quiz, reflection prompts, and practical tools to help you strengthen the way you serve your community. Thank you for listening and for the work you do to build stronger, more connected communities. Until next time, keep leading with purpose, keep making room for others, and keep showing up in ways that move your community forward.